2nd floor flat 100% responsible for roof ?

richimgd

@ propertyman. Thanks for the detailed post and I have been on the phone to the MA who I did ask about checking the lease first. He said I should be able to get a copy of the lease first to look at or I could show a solicitor. I will take some pictures of the different elevations as you suggest.

The MA works for Country Wide and its more out of convenience that I was going to be using his contacts. I am taking each step at a time and we haven’t pre arranged all steps as such so I would be free to use my own contacts if I wanted to. He is a really nice guy so perhaps I have put too much confidence in him sorting things out putting my interests first.

@ Jee, I think that's a fair point and has made me think. I have a friend who has recommended me a solicitor so I could use her instead potentially. I think this is definitely the way forward so could do with looking into a few local ones also. I think the way you handled your property is the way I need to handle mine.

The roof seems to be in good condition so far (newly done in 1998) but I am anticipating that the electrics and boiler might not be in the best condition so could leave room for further negotiations. I had previously discussed prices with the EA and the offer in question is slightly lower than what the EA had anticipated the vendor agreeing to. I could see how things turn out as to potentially offering less is there is any problems. I think it would be reasonable for me to offer a bit less than I was going to regarding the confirmation that I am responsible for all of the roof + chimney stacks.

My mortgage would also be with Halifax. The MA suggested a home buyers report for a survey and showed me an example report from another property which seemed to go into pretty good detail. I think the level of detail a full survey would go into might be too much to comprehend by the sounds of it at first, but if any things get flagged up as problems I could always get them looked at in more detail - at least that was the plan.

I had worked out if I pay about £40 into a savings account each month and don’t touch it, it will hopefully be a good amount of money to cover any roof costs since that would be about £500 per year. Hopefully it would create a good enough slush fund!

jee

OP I think that's a good idea to use your friend's solicitor. I would contact her and ask for a quote- tell her it's a leasehold flat you're buying.

I would hold off booking the survey until the solicitor gets a copy of the lease- explain to the EA and the MA that you want to see what you're responsible for before committing to a survey.

If the roof was newly repaired in 1998 I think you're ok for quite a while! The solicitors enquiries will confirm what work was carried out.

Put in an offer on the assumption that the roof is ok and needs no work- make this clear to the EA. If the survey comes back and says repairs need to be make revise your offer down.

richimgd

Thanks Jee.

I spoke to the solicitor who was really helpful. I am going to send her the lease to look at but would want to look at copies of flat 1 and 2's leases. It seems from speaking to the EA that they will only be able to get me a copy of the lease for Flat 3 (the flat I would be buying). The solicitor said they can get copies of the lease to download from the land registry but they would cost £24. I have been in contact with flat 1 and it might be cheeky but I could ask for a copy of her lease. Its more of a case of wanting to see what the other owners in flat 1 and 2 are legally responsible for, as much as knowing what I am.

Something the solicitor also said is there could be the potential to get together with the other flats with a view to buy the freehold off the freeholder. I am not sure how I would convince the other flats that this is a good idea and how it would work but potentially it would be to remedy what is quite a lose arrangement. I don't know if I were the other flats I would want to volunteer myself to have additional responsibility (i.e the roof) but it was still something I hadn't thought of doing.

The EA wants me to put a firm offer in. The property was on the market 10 months ago for £162k. It was reduced to £152k about 6 months ago. On net house prices it looks like it was bought for £136k in 1996. I had offered £139k to begin with a which was rejected. £142k was also rejected. I was told if I offered £145k I would get it which was the lowest price they said they would accept. I have since found out I am responsible for the entire roof (although already expected this), gutters and the chimney stack/pots so think it would be fair to put a lower offer in.

I think the EA wants to see me put an offer in just to get the process going again since as far as he is concerned I haven't agreed that I want to buy it at the price the seller wants to sell it yet. With any offer I put it, its on the assumption that everything is in good working order and if work needs doing on anything I will need to negotiate something. Does it sound like I have got things covered more now and would you suggest me trying a different approach?

jee

I think you should go for £143 as an offer and work from there. Tell the EA that the offer is subject to survey.
With regards to leases I would leave this to your solicitor. She will explain to you who owns what and to proceed. The parking space is something that should be looked at to see if it is in the lease.

If you buy the freehold along with the other flats you might agree to a service charge for repairs maintenance and building insurance. This would also contribute to a sinking fund for major works like a new roof.
You'll find that leaseholders are usually keen to buy the freehold when their leases are getting close to 80 years- although you have an absent freeholder and this will make a difference. Do you know how long you have on the lease?

richimgd

It’s a long lease - 999 years with only about 70 or so years used on it. In an ideal world myself and the other flat owners would sort things out to share some kind of maintenance arrangement, but that would only help my situation – I don’t think anyone is going to sign up to pay money and gain additional responsibility somehow! Currently flat 2 probably has nothing to pay for in terms of maintenance so don't think they will be in a rush to change this arrangement. I am approaching this and any other property very cautiously and it seems now that I finally have more detail it seems that I have more to be concerned about. Even painting things like the fascia’s once every 10 years would be no small job as its so high up but this would all be my responsibility. I guess any insurance claim for anything that might happen would be on the basis that I kept up with any maintenance.

It seems I would be buying the flat cheaper as it comes with the baggage of maintenance responsibility. Other properties of this size and in the same location are way out of my price league (at least 15%+) I think if that is the way it is I am seriously questioning whether or not I want to go ahead now. I don’t think it would be a problem initially, but in 5-10 years if I want to sell it, I think I might find it difficult.

I’ll be getting a copy of the lease which I asked for earlier today which I will take a look at but I am more likely to drop out of the deal since alarm bells are slowly beginning to ring. Of course if the current owner can negotiate some miraculous change in arrangements with the neighbours I might be more interested!

Going back to the parking though, It turns out flat 2 doesn’t have a parking space. Its funny when I spoke to the guy from flat 2 he was very careful not to suggest he wasn't allowed to park there as I wasn’t aware of the detail at the time.

Ah well, perhaps this is the result of thinking too much..!

propertyman

Don't be silly this is exactly the kind of thinking you should be doing.

I would agree and you should obtain the copies of all 3 leases, though frankly your solicitors should be able to do this straight-away in most cases.

With the estate agent I suggest you say along the lines of

I am committed and subject to survey and contract my intention is to purchase.

My stumbling block is however how much an obligation it will be and how that affects price.

You "Mr EA" valued ( or market appraised) the property unaware of these matters and the potential disputes over parking, so it is not directly comparable with the majority of buildings where responsibility and costs is shared.

That means that I need to first understand what I am taking on and whether the offer I make reflects a fair price taking into account those obligations.It is not to say that I am going to not make an offer or a low offer, but an informed one.

This should take 5 days bear with me and frankly it's better for all concerned esp the client that,
1: if I were to be advised against buying
2: or if we agreed an offer but valuation advice said I really should pay £x not the offer and we could not agree
that I back out then and not 5 weeks from now, isn't it?

The agent will then try to persuade you to make an offer, that way both you and the client are on the hook. I would at that point beat them with a wet fish for being so self centred and dumb.

If they are self centred and dumb I suggest a first refusal for 5 days , they can still show people over but if others are interested you will get the chance to make a final offer.

budgetdiyer

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

You haven't put an offer in yet, so the EA is not going to waste a lot of time on answering your questions. I know it is a bit 'chicken and egg' but the only way forward is to put in an offer based on what you know -

What?!? Its the estate agents job to get offers and to sell the flat. They should be keen to answer any questions a purchasers has, if they don't know the answer off hand they should be finding the answers to simple questions such as leasehold details!

Oh and for what its worth, unless the price significantly reflected the liabilities of the lease i would'nt touch it with a barge pole.

propertyman

budgetdiyer wrote: »

What?!? Its the estate agents job to get offers and to sell the flat. They should be keen to answer any questions a purchasers has, if they don't know the answer off hand they should be finding the answers to simple questions such as leasehold details!

Your would think so, but that not how it often works. This sort of answer is usually provided where there is little interest. Most agents would nit understand how to understand a lease and who would pay for the copy leases and the advice- the vendor won't.

Where there is significant interest from others who don't ask pesky questions, they will push them as buyers.

That way should questions come to light it is for the solicitor to resolve and, as both parties are on the hook, more likely to compromise on their concerns.

budgetdiyer

propertyman wrote: »

Your would think so, but that not how it often works. This sort of answer is usually provided where there is little interest. Most agents would nit understand how to understand a lease and who would pay for the copy leases and the advice- the vendor won't.

Where there is significant interest from others who don't ask pesky questions, they will push them as buyers.

That way should questions come to light it is for the solicitor to resolve and, as both parties are on the hook, more likely to compromise on their concerns.

I'm an estate agent and that is frankly ridiculous. The only circumstances that might lead to lack of information such as this might be a repossessed property, otherwise the agent / vendor should find information like this out in advance. (They both want to sell the property afterall!)

As an agent i'd rather put my hard work into finding a firm buyer for the property, rather than hide / omit important details only to see the sale fall through.

I have an overview of lease details of all leasehold properties on my books.

What your saying is a bit like selling a car and not knowing what CC the engine is and what petrol it runs on...

ticktack_2

richimgd wrote: »

The rule is the owner of this flat is responsible for the roof whereas the bottom flat is responsible for the lower part of the building and foundations. Has anyone heard about this type of arrangement before?

I live under a somewhat similar arrangement. My flat is split-level over Floors 1 & 2. The lease specifies that I'm responsible for maintenance of the roof, and the wall outside my flat, while ground floor flat is only responsible for their part of the wall. You are correct that this is not an even split of the maintenance obligations. On the other hand, it does have some advantages, because it means there's no nasty unexpected compulsory maintenance bills from managing company.

The worst thing about this kind of maintenance obligation is that it can be hard to make sure maintenance is kept up to a good standard. If ground-floor trim needs painting, for instance, and ground-floor occupant is reluctant to do it in accordance with his obligations under the lease, you may find it hard to do anything about that. This may affect your ability to sell.

I'd advise against buying a flat with this type of maintaining lease, based on my own experience.