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Utility Warehouse (Telecom Plus) Discussion

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  • Quentin
    Quentin Posts: 40,405 Forumite
    Decado23 wrote: »
    another possibility in all this is that we are all wasting our time even caring who pays the comparison sites......

    No-one does care apart from the uw who via their reps tell us they are above using the comparison sites, don't pay them commission and only use energylinx (but deny paying them, despite energylinx being completely transparent about how they get the commission they share)!

    Yet uw don't put this ethical claim on their website. Wonder why not?

    Maybe just get the reps to say it, then there is no chance of any asa complications?

    And definitely don't let on to the 25000 reps that all their mates could get some cashback by joining direct via the cashback sites, and stop the 25000 realising the possibility of not getting their cut!
  • 1carminestocky
    1carminestocky Posts: 5,256 Forumite
    Cashback Cashier
    There's no point debating anything online. You might as well hurl shoes in the air to knock clouds from the sky. The internet's perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain't one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional "live audience" quickly conspire to create a "perfect storm" of perpetual bickering.

    Stumble in, take umbrage with someone, trade a few blows, and within about two or three exchanges, the subject itself goes out the window. Suddenly you're simply arguing about arguing. Eventually, one side gets bored, comes to its senses, or dies, and the row fizzles out: just another needless belch in the swirling online guffstorm.

    But not for long, because online quarrelling is also addictive, in precisely the same way Tetris is addictive. It appeals to the "lab rat" part of your brain; the annoying, irrepressible part that adores repetitive pointlessness and would gleefully make you pop bubblewrap till Doomsday if it ever got its way. An unfortunate few, hooked on the futile thrill of online debate, devote their lives to its cause. They roam the internet, actively seeking out viewpoints they disagree with, or squat on messageboards, whining, needling, sneering, over-analysing each new proclamation - joylessly fiddling, like unhappy gorillas doomed to pick lice from one another's fur for all eternity. (Charlie Brooker)

    If Mr Brooker had been talking in jest, then never a truer word would have been spoken. It does sort of sum up internet bulletin boards, doesn't it? :D

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/02/comment.charliebrooker
    Call me Carmine....

    HAVE YOU SEEN QUENTIN'S CASHBACK CARD??
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,060 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Rampant Recycler
    Decado23 wrote: »
    More important would be the fact that if you wish to switch to the 'best' deal, you'd better keep your eye on the ball - best deals don't necessarily remain the best for very long.

    My opinion remain that for a large number of people who do not wish to switch suppliers regularly, UW represents an excellent all-round deal.

    If you know of a company (or companies) that could offer a better overall, long term, package for the many people that have never switched and have no intention of becoming regular switchers, then please give us the details.

    I am sorry but this is simply misleading.

    For a start most(all?) of the big 6 have offered fixed price tariffs for some years.

    I along with a couple of million others have been on BG's fixed to April 30 2010 and have been on this tariff since late 2005. - Three and a half years!!! On my heavy consumption I am saving £864pa over UW's tariff.

    So I haven't needed to watch prices, and without checking all fixed price tariffs I suspect that the majority of the big 6 fixed tariffs are cheaper than UW.

    Now much is made by UW reps of the need on the Big 6 to follow tariffs closely; and that is certainly true if you want the best deal evey time.

    In particular much(justified) criticism is made of BG having had 8 versions of their internet tariff Click1/2/3/4/5/6 and now websaver 1 and websaver 2

    Well as an exercise I punched in 3,300kWh Electricity and 20,500kWh Gas PA in UW's favourite comparison site - Energylinx.

    If someone(obviously for my post code) had been put on ClickEnergy 1 and remained on that tariff for the last 3 years, they would be now paying £92.03 more than the cheapest available tariff(BG Websaver2). However crucially he would still be paying £83.65 LESS than UW.

    You are fully aware that the only tariff that UW have remained competitive with for years is the most expensive tariff available on the market - namely BG Standard tariff. - and even to achieve that UW exclude the BG discounts and exclude UW's membership fee.

    So this mantra that staying with UW, rather than constantly having to swop with other companies, will give you competitive gas and electricity prices is simply not true.

    It cannot be stated often enough that UW gas and electricity prices have consistently been amongst the very highest available in the market.
  • Decado23
    Decado23 Posts: 255 Forumite
    Cardew wrote: »
    I along with a couple of million others have been on BG's fixed to April 30 2010 and have been on this tariff since late 2005.

    is that tariff available to all customers, are BG's other customers paying more to subsidise your savings?
    “Things that I felt absolutely sure of but a few years ago, I do not believe now. This thought makes me see more clearly how foolish it would be to expect all men to agree with me.” - Jim Rohn
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,060 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Rampant Recycler
    Decado23 wrote: »
    is that tariff available to all customers, are BG's other customers paying more to subsidise your savings?

    It was available to all customers, it isn't even an 'internet account'.

    My point was, contrary to your statement, people on fixed tariffs(by definition!!) don't have to constantly change tariffs.

    Similarly someone on any of the eight BG internet tariffs will have always had cheaper gas and electricity than UW even if they didn't bother to change their tariff. I suspect that applies for any of the Big 6 tariffs.

    I agree totally that other BG customers are in effect subsidising those of us cheap fixed tariffs - or at least BG are making far less profit from us.

    It begs the question if BG are having to subsidise us by charging other customers more - (BG Standard tariff ), why is it that UW can only match this most expensive BG Standard tariff (and then only by excluding BG discounts and the UW fee)

    As discussed in MSE and in the Telecoms websites, UW are not anything like the cheapest for phone and internet either.

    It really would save an awful lot of keyboard time if UW did not try to pretend they compete on price for anything - they simply do not!

    I will concede that if you are prepared to accept the shortcomings and risks(which I don't feel are great) of the cashcard, then it currently can compensate for the high UW prices.
  • NigeWick
    NigeWick Posts: 2,726 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Debt-free and Proud!
    Cardew wrote: »
    I will concede that if you are prepared to accept the shortcomings and risks(which I don't feel are great) of the cashcard, then it currently can compensate for the high UW prices.
    Hello everybody. I'm back from a tour of the WW1 battlefields with my school. Crikey you lot have been busy while I've been away!

    AND, I return to a nice post from Cardew.:beer:
    The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour upon it, the more it will contract.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes
  • Quentin
    Quentin Posts: 40,405 Forumite
    Cardew wrote: »
    if you are prepared to accept the shortcomings and risks(which I don't feel are great) of the cashcard, then it currently can compensate for the high UW prices.

    When buying one of these cards, you also need to accept the ts + cs as well as the risks that come with it. (Risks include that had you used it to at eg MFI to pay for your new kitchen/bedroom etc, and they went bust before delivering it, then you have lost everything)

    In particular you must accept that should you ever at any time and for any reason have an outstanding balance on your uw bill, then all the discount you have earned during the previous month is forfeited for ever!

    Apart from the ongoing £1/month charged after 6 months, this rises to £5/month if you leave the club. They charge £5 for replacing damaged cards etc etc.

    Also bear in mind when comparing it's advertised (though never achievable) 5% "return", that it is only of any "value" if you are prepared to pay over the top for the services and membership fees of the uw club.

    Instead, moneysavers should look for cheaper services easily obtained elsewhere, and a true cashback credit card.

    Then although the advertised return will seem less, in fact it will be paid on every penny spent everywhere, not just at uw's 28 retailers, and you will have the protection missing from the uw card included for no charge. And the card will be free of charges and free to get in the first place.
  • 1carminestocky
    1carminestocky Posts: 5,256 Forumite
    Cashback Cashier
    Decado23 wrote: »
    Personally, in the present climate I wouldn't think it wise to by a 5 grand kitchen at all, unless it was somehow an absolute necessity. I used that example as it was given in an earlier post by the person I was responding to.

    In general terms, regarding the 'risks' associated with the cashback card, perhaps I can put it into a little perspective using my own spending habits...

    I tend to shop online at sainsburys twice a month or so, spending around £115, so £230 monthly average.
    I pick up my lunch at the sainsburys near work, maybe £4 per day, so around £80 per month.
    It's hard to judge the amount spent at argos, mothercare and homebase and the others as these are generally sporadic, one off, purchases. Over the course of a year I'd hazard a conservative guess maybe it would average at around £40 per month.

    based on that, my average monthly cashback would be around £17.50, so £210 annually.

    subtract 12 x £1 monthly fee + 24 x £0.35 top up processing fee = £189.60 cashback per year. Based on fairly conservative estimates.

    I tend to top up my card to a balance of £160 or so a day or two before the sainsburys order (unless I am aware of a large additional planned purchase). This drops to £40-£50 on the card within 2 days, and diminishes over the next two weeks until the next order is coming up.

    Assuming someone was to obtain my card and pin, and cleaned it out before I had reported it missing, they are still very unlikely to find more than £30 or so on there. So, if my card is stolen 6 times over the course of a year, I'm still 9.60 better off. Chances of that happening.. well, I'm 32 and have had a debit card for longer than I can remember. I have had a credit card for 7ish years. I have had money fraudulently taken using a cloned card on one occasion. ONE.

    I'll take the risk, thanks.



    The risk of fraud with the UW cashback card is far far less scary than with a credit card. The reasons are, I hope, entirely obvious....

    It's nice to see a bit of common sense prevailing with regard to the cashback card. Of course, NOTHING in life is without risk, even getting up in the morning (do you know that more people die on the toilet than anywhere else? Unless you want no friends, you still have to use it, of course). I suppose what one must do is balance risk with potential rewards. Do you take that lonely walk across the dancefloor to ask that 'love at first sight' to dance because she might say yes or don't you do it for risk of being rejected and making the long return trip? :confused::D

    IMO it's an absolutely brilliant innovation that in one movement sweeps away the most common perceived/real negative with regard to UW. Price. It can not only make them competitve but, amazingly, the absolute cheapest. And by a LONG way for some people (us, for instance). In that respect UW are unique in the marketplace. No other company could claim such a thing.

    Funnily enough, even without the cashback card discount, on our usage in the Yorkshire region, for us to get our gas and electric from BGs latest online tariff, Websaver2 and our phone line/broadband from BTs Option2 package would cost £50 per annum more than getting our G&E from UW and their comparable phone line/BB package. And that's even with UWs pre-decrease prices.The cashback card makes it a no-brainer, of course.
    Call me Carmine....

    HAVE YOU SEEN QUENTIN'S CASHBACK CARD??
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,060 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Rampant Recycler
    vinnyph wrote: »
    Don't know why that last post went twice. I wasn't trying desperately to be heard, must have clicked the Submit Reply button twice, sorry lads and ladesses. While I am at it I edited the last line of the that long post earlier where I mistakenly wrote do instead of don't. Thanks for pointing that out to me Quentin, its nice have have someone to check that you've crossed your i's and dotted your t's.

    You can delete the duplicated post by going to edit and in the bottom right is 'delete'
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,060 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Rampant Recycler
    vinnyph wrote: »

    Where it says 'We do not advertise' that is where the company is stating that it does not advertising. Use of a price comparison site is advertising. UW do not advertise.

    I would dispute your definition that "use of a price comparison site is advertising". UW self evidently do use price comparison sites, look on Energylinx and you will see that UW are there along with all other companies.

    Your contention is that they don't pay commission to Energylinx(who say on their website that they do!!) I suspect, as discussed above, that switching to UW via the comparison sites is via a proxy who pays the sites.

    I take it that you do not dispute that Energylinx do pay £34 to customers switching to UW?

    I would also dispute that UW do not advertise! Otherwise why would the Advertising Standards Authority(ASA) have had several rulings against UW?

    Companies can advertise on the internet, leaflets etc!
    Now correct me if I am wrong but does that not all sound very ethical.

    Allow me to correct you!

    If the quote you posted above is your definition of 'Ethical' I would hate to see anything you considered 'unethical'.

    It is a legal masterpiece! Carefully crafted to give the impression that UW actually have cheaper prices than most other firms, without actually breaking the law on misrepresentation.

    Anyone who has any knowledge of energy and telecom prices knows that UW simply does not compete on price. - something acknowledged by several of the UW reps on this forum.
    Something that can be confirmed by anyone who cares to use any of the comparison networks - UW are consistently near the bottom of any Price table.

    IMO it is one of the most unethical statements I have seen.
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