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in a pickle - assured shorthold tenancy
eld
Posts: 73 Forumite
Ok guys in a pickle here, i had an Assured Shorthold tenancy agreement starting end of July 2010 for 6 months.
We moved out September 2011. So around 6-7 months after the initial 6 months was up.
Our old letting agent contact the council to say that we did not go through our tenancy so we owe the council tax from september 2011 to january 2012.
My question is, after the initial 6 months, no one signed anything to renew or do a new contract. Can the letting agent just auto renew a contract like that? Are we actually liable for the council tax while not living there after september?
We moved out September 2011. So around 6-7 months after the initial 6 months was up.
Our old letting agent contact the council to say that we did not go through our tenancy so we owe the council tax from september 2011 to january 2012.
My question is, after the initial 6 months, no one signed anything to renew or do a new contract. Can the letting agent just auto renew a contract like that? Are we actually liable for the council tax while not living there after september?
Appreciate everyone’s advice here, keep up the great work!
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Comments
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6 months from end of July 2010 takes you to end of January 2011. If you moved out in Sept 2011 that is a further 8 monthsOk guys in a pickle here, i had an Assured Shorthold tenancy agreement starting end of July 2010 for 6 months.
We moved out September 2011. So around 6-7 months after the initial 6 months was up.
Not unless the property is in Scotland and subject to "tacit relocation".Our old letting agent contact the council to say that we did not go through our tenancy so we owe the council tax from september 2011 to january 2012.
My question is, after the initial 6 months, no one signed anything to renew or do a new contract. Can the letting agent just auto renew a contract like that?
If the property is in Eng/Wales ( which it must be if you were signed up to an AST rather than a SAT as in Scotland) then your tenancy will have continued under what is known as a statutory periodic agreement. It will have run on from one month to the next after expiry of the original Fixed Term - all the contract terms would have been the sem [edit: same!] except that you had to give one month's notice and the LL had to give you 2 months, tied in with the end of a tenancy period, unless agreed otherwise.
Do you have any paperwork/emails between you and the LL from the time when you moved out?Are we actually liable for the council tax while not living there after september?
If you were obliged to pay Council Tax then you would presumably also have been obliged to pay rent & utility bills but as you say you did not sign up for a further Fixed term this cannot be the case.
Go into the CT office and deal with this promptly: give them the dates of your tenancy, tell them that you gave proper notice to end the tenancy ( if you did) and show them evidence that you have been living elsewhere & paying CT there.
Don't rely on the LA to sort it out because they probably won't.0 -
I understand you "moved out" Sept 2011. How was the tenancy ended?? (eg did you give notice, can you prove it??). If not, even though you moved out the tenancy would probably have continued..
Was there a tenancy-check-out report from the agent ??0 -
6 months from end of July 2010 takes you to end of January 2011. If you moved out in Sept 2011 that is a further 8 months
My bad my math was a little off then.
Yes it is in england, i just read up about SPA about it going month to month. Thanks for that has helped a lot.Not unless the property is in Scotland and subject to "tacit relocation".
If the property is in Eng/Wales ( which it must be if you were signed up to an AST rather than a SAT as in Scotland) then your tenancy will have continued under what is known as a statutory periodic agreement. It will have run on from one month to the next after expiry of the original Fixed Term - all the contract terms would have been the sem except that you had to give one month's notice and the LL had to give you 2 months, tied in with the end of a tenancy period, unless agreed otherwise.
I read up on www.simplyrent.co.uk/tntfaq.htm/#Q2 that once the fixed term is up on a Assured shorthold you don't even need to notify the landlord you can move out the day after (i don't know how true that is). What bugs me is the letting agent didn't answer any of my messages.
No i don't sadly i sent them a letter and phoned them and even text the agent who we dealt with to originally sign the contract and we received no reply at all.Do you have any paperwork/emails between you and the LL from the time when you moved out?
The two guys who stayed for a couple weeks after us also notified them and didn't receive any reply at all.If you were obliged to pay Council Tax then you would presumably also have been obliged to pay rent & utility bills but as you say you did not sign up for a further Fixed term this cannot be the case.
Go into the CT office and deal with this promptly: give them the dates of your tenancy, tell them that you gave proper notice to end the tenancy ( if you did) and show them evidence that you have been living elsewhere & paying CT there.
Don't rely on the LA to sort it out because they probably won't.
Yeah we paid all the bills on the house and all bill companies where notified of me moving out including the council, the council have a record of my email to them and so do i telling them i was moving out to take my name off the council tax.
I have an appointment with a lady at the council tax office tomorrow who is going to take a quick look over the agreement and take a copy of it and advise me on it.
If a letting agent does not contact you back is it down to me to pester them? Am i in the right after a letter, texts and calls (with answer phone messages) to constantly pester until i get an answer?
They haven't contacted any of us since we moved via phone or letter and when we signed the originally agreements they took alternatives contact details from us (mine being my mums address) and they made no attempt since we moved to contact us.
Something that is also bugging me is that the council have my address postal and email and didn't send me anything ever to ask about it, i only found out today.Appreciate everyone’s advice here, keep up the great work!0 -
You need to be precise with things like dates and occupants because it really matters to the answers we can give you.
A statutory periodic tenancy requires you to give at least one full rental period's notice, to coincide with a rental period. For instance, if you were running month-to-month starting on the 17th, you would need to give notice on the 16th and leave by the 16th.
As for leaving at the end of the fixed term, you do not have to give notice as long as you leave on or before the last day. You do not stay until the 'day after' as then you will be an SPT.The two guys who stayed for a couple weeks after us also notified them and didn't receive any reply at all.
Who are these 'two guys'? Did you have a joint and several tenancy with them?
Anyway, it is good that you are visiting the council tax office in person. You do not want to get caught out by failing to deal with this. You will need as much evidence as you can get of the fact that you were not in occupation. If you do not have evidence of handing in notice then you might be able to supply utility bills and rental agreements from the property you moved to.
The letting agent is entirely separate to the council tax office. Although contacting them might help you provide some evidence to the council, if there is no other dispute they are not particularly relevant to you.
The agents cannot just 'renew' a contract for another year, so unless there is a detail you are missing out then you should not be liable.0 -
OP - do you know whether new Ts moved in after you had moved out?
Had you paid a tenancy deposit - was this scheme registered by the LA/LL? Paid back/disputed?0 -
It's good that you are doing some research but you seem to have misread or misinterpretedMy bad my math was a little off then.
Yes it is in england, i just read up about SPA about it going month to month. Thanks for that has helped a lot.
I read up on www.simplyrent.co.uk/tntfaq.htm/#Q2 that once the fixed term is up on a Assured shorthold you don't even need to notify the landlord you can move out the day after (i don't know how true that is). What bugs me is the letting agent didn't answer any of my messages.[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"on the last day of the fixed term (if any) you can leave the property, whether or not you have told the Landlord you intend to do so."[/FONT]The Fixed Term is that bit under your original contract - had you wanted to leave by the expiry date of that then you could simply have gone at that point, courtesy to LL notwithstanding.
As PoP says, any T leaving the day after the expiry will find themselves charged a further rent payment.
Once on to the stat periodic, a T must give proper notice as we have already explained, unless a LL agrees otherwise.
Were these people signed up to one tenancy agreement with you, having joint and several liability?The two guys who stayed for a couple weeks after us also notified them and didn't receive any reply at all.
After your meeting, *write* (keeping your own copy) to the Council confirming your understanding of the discussions/agreement.I have an appointment with a lady at the council tax office tomorrow who is going to take a quick look over the agreement and take a copy of it and advise me on it.
That's because they probably have it somewhere on the system that you *had* moved out - if no new T moved in then they would look to the LL for CT liability who, via the LA, seems to be trying to bounce it back to you.If a letting agent does not contact you back is it down to me to pester them? Am i in the right after a letter, texts and calls (with answer phone messages) to constantly pester until i get an answer?
They haven't contacted any of us since we moved via phone or letter and when we signed the originally agreements they took alternatives contact details from us (mine being my mums address) and they made no attempt since we moved to contact us.
Something that is also bugging me is that the council have my address postal and email and didn't send me anything ever to ask about it, i only found out today.
When you talk about a lack of response from the LA, are you saying that they did not acknowledge your notice?
To whom did you return the property keys held by you, when you moved out? Did you get a receipt?0 -
This situation comes up quite regularly with the L/Lords we deal with. If the period falls within a tenancy agreement then we would have no choice but to hold the tenants liable for as long as the agreements lasts / until another person moves in (if earlier).I have an appointment with a lady at the council tax office tomorrow who is going to take a quick look over the agreement and take a copy of it and advise me on it.
Where the tenancy reverted to an ongoing one after the initial agreement ended then we would only hold a person to the end of the notice period , any further and the landlord would have to provide proof of that the tenancy period has rolled on to cover that period.I no longer work in Council Tax Recovery but instead work as a specialist Council Tax paralegal assisting landlords and Council Tax payers with council tax disputes and valuation tribunals. My views are my own reading of the law and you should always check with the local authority in question.0 -
Theres nothing im missing. Ive just checked the agreement it specifically says 6months from 28th July 2010 and thereafter month to month. So thats made me happier since i knew i read it somewhere, its pretty clear.
We gave them notice before the 28th of august with multiple ways letter, texts and answerphone messages.
It is just them trying to bounce it back to us by the looks of it, i will let yo guys know what the council tax office say i will see if they can find out if any new tennants have moved in, if so that helps even moremAppreciate everyone’s advice here, keep up the great work!0 -
OK - so you stayed beyond the original 6 month Fixed Term and created a (monthly) Periodic Tenancy. However:
1) how many people are named on the original tenancy agreement? Who are these other 'two guys'? Joint tenants? It makes a big difference!
2) What (precise) date did the original Fixed Term end? What date did you send your Notice? What date did you move out?
3) Were keys returned? Accepted by landlord/agent? Had you paid a deposit and was it returned? This all indicates wherher or not the tenancy ended, when and how.
4) what happened to other utility bills? Did you close gas/electric accounts and pay final bills?
5) Did new tenants move in so far as you know? When?0 -
On the original tenancy was 4 people, me and 1 my partner left together, one was kicked out and one remained with a new tenant after we left the new tenant never signed anything.
The tenant who got kicked out had the deposit so we never had one with them.
The fixed term ended on January 28th 2011, all bills in my name where closed when i moved and settled.Appreciate everyone’s advice here, keep up the great work!0
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