in a pickle - assured shorthold tenancy

tbs624

CIS wrote: »

This situation comes up quite regularly with the L/Lords we deal with. If the period falls within a tenancy agreement then we would have no choice but to hold the tenants liable for as long as the agreements lasts / until another person moves in (if earlier).

Where the tenancy reverted to an ongoing one after the initial agreement ended then we would only hold a person to the end of the notice period , any further and the landlord would have to provide proof of that the tenancy period has rolled on to cover that period.

Useful post CIS,as ever, but note that after expiry of the Fixed Term the tenancy doesn't "revert", ie go back, to a stat periodic, it moves on to one

eld

Thanks CIS so the landlord in my case has to somehow prove we stayed there really even though i contacted all bill companies, the council tax office also have notice of me leaving and the multiple messages to the landlord.

Not going to let me or my partner get stung by them. It took us 8 months to get them to even send us a copy of the agreement thats how slack they are.

G_M

eld wrote: »

On the original tenancy was 4 people, me and 1 my partner left together, one was kicked out and one remained with a new tenant after we left the new tenant never signed anything.

The tenant who got kicked out had the deposit so we never had one with them.

The fixed term ended on January 28th 2011, all bills in my name where closed when i moved and settled.

So. Four joint tenants.

Three move out but one remains in occupation.

The tenancy has not ended since one of the joint tenants is still there.

Therefore all 4 original joint tenants remain equally liable for rent (and council tax etc).

Assuming the tenancy agreement was "joint and several" liability.

How was number 3 'kicked out'? By the landlord? (illegal eviction?) Or by the other tenants.....?

eld

The other two left at the end of the month just to clarify, we left the weekend before the end of the month so everyone was out before the end of the month

G_M

eld wrote: »

The other two left at the end of the month just to clarify, we left the weekend before the end of the month so everyone was out before the end of the month

1) how many people are named on the original tenancy agreement? Who are these other 'two guys'? OK - Joint tenants

2) What (precise) date did the original Fixed Term end? What date did you send your Notice? What date did you move out?

3) Were keys returned? Accepted by landlord/agent? Had you paid a deposit and was it returned? This all indicates wherher or not the tenancy ended, when and how.

4) what happened to other utility bills? Did you close gas/electric accounts and pay final bills? OK - accounts closed

5) Did new tenants move in so far as you know? When?

princeofpounds

Therefore all 4 original joint tenants remain equally liable for rent (and council tax etc).

Not necessarily. Council tax liability does not equate to rental liability. Each council will have a schedule of liability which is a ranking of who should be paying. Typically what matters is residence.

In theory you could have a tenant who is not resident I suppose, though it would be rare. Such a tenant could conceivably even benefit from things like empty-home discounts, if they applied correctly.

Mind you, that's a pedantic point. But thought I'd mention it.

Ulfar

G_M wrote: »

So. Four joint tenants.
Therefore all 4 original joint tenants remain equally liable for rent (and council tax etc).

Assuming the tenancy agreement was "joint and several" liability.

Afraid not, if one member of a joint contract gives the correct notice it brings that contract to an end. Its not just me saying this, this is Shelters advise on the subject.

In addition the council tax would have become the sole responsibility of the remaining tenant, as a sole occupant he/she could have claimed the 25% discount. As soon as another tenant moved in the full council tax would have been the responsibility of both tenants.

G_M

Ulfar wrote: »

Afraid not, if one member of a joint contract gives the correct notice it brings that contract to an end. Its not just me saying this, this is Shelters advise on the subject.

In addition the council tax would have become the sole responsibility of the remaining tenant, as a sole occupant he/she could have claimed the 25% discount. As soon as another tenant moved in the full council tax would have been the responsibility of both tenants.

You are correct that in a Periodic Tenancy, any one of the 4 can give valid notice to end the tenancy and it is legally as if all 4 had given notice. The Notice is therefore valid and must be accepted by the LL as such.

However, that is not the same as ending a tenancy.

If at the end of the notice period one or more joint tenant does not move out, then clearly the tenancy has not ended.

In that scenario, all 4 remain jointly and severally liable.

Yellowstar_2

G_M wrote: »

You are correct that in a Periodic Tenancy, any one of the 4 can give valid notice to end the tenancy and it is legally as if all 4 had given notice. The Notice is therefore valid and must be accepted by the LL as such.

However, that is not the same as ending a tenancy.

If at the end of the notice period one or more joint tenant does not move out, then clearly the tenancy has not ended.

In that scenario, all 4 remain jointly and severally liable.

Are you sure that's correct, G_M?

I was in a similar situation, and was advised by Shelter that one tenant in a joint and several (periodic) agreement giving correct notice to end the tenancy, ends the tenancy for all parties once the notice expires. I was told by Shelter that as long as I gave the notice correctly, my liability as a tenant ended once that notice expired, regardless of what my (awful) flatmate did. Of course, the LL could still make deductions from our joint deposit, but it was my understanding that once the (correctly served) notice expired, the tenancy no longer existed.

Yellowstar x

tbs624

Interesting discussion on this one at

http://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2011/04/11/tenants-legal-help-five-things-about-joint-tenants/

See Tessa's point 5 and then the comments from others below