BBC One tonight: Poor America

Generali

mumps wrote: »

I don't think people should be pathetically grateful, and I have made complaints about medical care of a loved one that I thought was disgraceful but if you have an emergency then the trip to hospital in an ambulance with blue flashing lights, doctors and nurses waiting for you at the door and the sudden grabbing of you as they move you to a bed and perhaps, as in my case, the anaesthetist reassures you as he quietly goes about his business is amazing, reassuring and very, very impressive. They don't always get it right but alot of people are grateful, hopefully not pathetically.

Funnily enough, people get exactly the same thing from other health services. There is nothing unique about the NHS having doctors and nurses.

What is unusual about the NHS is old people dying of malnutrition in their care and hundreds dying because the cleaners aren't made to clean the hospital properly with no sanction applied to the boss!

There are worse systems than the NHS but don't fall for this envy of the world balderdash. There are things in the UK that are The Envy of The World but the NHS ain't one of them.

lionelator

Try again Generali.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-10634371
The NHS is envied the world over by people who understand what it provides.
As I said, its not a perfect system, if there was, everyone would have the same system, but when you sit down and look at it its absolutely nothing to be ashamed of and most people would say its something to be incredibly proud of.
Of course, it needs trimming, it needs streamlining, and there are major areas where it can improve.
But a failing system inferior to that offered anywhere else? Don't think so.

Mary_Hartnell

SailorSam wrote: »

I was shocked at that political meeting to hear some of the audience shouting out that the sick who couldn't afford health care should be left to die and starve. And when they were talking to the young kids about what they ate at home, that 6yr old girl said then once ate a rat 'cos there was nothing else to eat.
Could things get that bad hear, it's often said some are only one payslip away from losing their homes, could we have tent cities here.

Under Margaret Thatcher we did. I often wondered if Socialist Camden deliberately encouraged Lincoln's Inn Fields to be full of tent dwellers to c0ck a snook at neighbouring Tory "Lady Tesco" Gerrymandering Westminster.

The Church made a complete fool of itself when the tents turned up in St Pauls - The protesters should have been challenged to build a straw bale sanctuary in time for the Xmas pageant.

I have been amazed by the way that USA had got away with running a massive balance of payment deficit for years and years. In effect living on the sweated labour of the Chinese.
Meanwhile the Chinese have been saving like mad.
There is a message in there somewhere.

Norfolk_Jim

A._Badger wrote: »

Daring to voice criticism of the NHS has somehow acquired the status of taking the name of God in vain in the 12th century.

Why people feel so pathetically grateful for an often inefficient, frequently inadequate, eye-wateringly expensive system, delivered in a true top-down manner is a great puzzle.

And as for the posters making sweeping generalisations about Americans' sweeping generalisations...

Do you think the guy with his guts poking out who needed a $20,000 operation but didn't have $20,000 sitting about might be grateful pathetically or otherwise if he could get the treatment he needed?

Road_Hog

Out,_Vile_Jelly wrote: »

I had a great time the summer I worked in the US as a student, in Colorado. A local colleague once asked in genuine curiosity why I was converting a price in a shop from dollars to pounds; "you don't use dollars in England?" I also met a guy at a Greyhound stop who insisted I must know Mick Jagger "as Britain is a small country and everyone knows each other."

This is the sort of 'quaint' America that I know. Most Americans that I have met outside of the large cities, I would describe as naive, but very pleasant decent people.

Road_Hog

Mary_Hartnell wrote: »

Meanwhile the Chinese have been saving like mad.
There is a message in there somewhere.

Yeah, like what are they going to do with all those huge wodges of worthless paper if the Dollar ever crashes.

Generali

lionelator wrote: »

Try again Generali.

But a failing system inferior to that offered anywhere else? Don't think so.

I don't think that which is why I didn't say that.

The NHS is inefficient and unpleasant to use for the most part. That isn't the case with some other medical systems that seem also to end up with better outcomes for a similar spend.

mumps

A._Badger wrote: »

Funnily enough, I have had personal experience of that within the past month, so please don't go all emotive on me.

In my case, the flashing blue lights and so on appeared on the scene an hour and a half after having tried to get some help from the pathetically inadequate out of hours NHS GP service - in my case staffed by an arrogant, supremely unhelpful, German alleged doctor who was - according to the paramedic who did attend - paid many hundreds of pounds to sit in a call centre and say 'call an ambulance'.

The system is broken and needs fixing but there are too many vested interests, and too many suffering from Stockholm syndrome, to allow that to happen.

I had a very different experience, called out of hours service, saw doctor within half an hour, Doctor then called the hospital and told me a team would be waiting for my son when we arrived at the hospital. I thought, "Oh yes." Arrived at hospital and sure enough a doctor and two nurses were waiting, within twenty minutes he had iv set up was receiving treatment and I was told which ward he would be moved to. Two hours later he was in bed in a side room. The Sister apologised that he didn't have an ensuite. Not gettimg emotive, stating facts, I think any mother would have been grateful for the treatment my son got. As I said I know this isn't always the case. No one asked for my credit card, he just got the treatment he needed and in the case the NHS was absolutely first class. I have never experienced health care in the US or Australia but I have friends/relatives in both and have heard good and bad about both.

lionelator

Generali wrote: »

I don't think that which is why I didn't say that.

The NHS is inefficient and unpleasant to use for the most part. That isn't the case with some other medical systems that seem also to end up with better outcomes for a similar spend.

In your opinion. Though it doesn't sound like you're even in the country ATM and yet you're on a UK based forum, Im not surprised you're talking up the system where you are at the moment, but having lived and worked in both Australia and the UK Im happy to say the system here, to me, works far far better.
Of course its not perfect, and yes it needs streamlining and updating, some occasions can be unpleasant yes, thats the case with any system.
However, in the end, it comes down to your opinion vs mine.
Im not sure what to make of your opinion, you're happy to put money into healthcare in Australia, but won't compare with the true equivalent here, NHS plus private insurance, for example with BUPA.
Theres enough studies to show the UK comes up top of the world in various forms of healthcare provision. Ive provided the link to one.
Therefore I dispute your suggestion that other systems come up with better outcomes, particularly with a similar spend.

ash28

Generali wrote: »

Funnily enough, people get exactly the same thing from other health services. There is nothing unique about the NHS having doctors and nurses.

What is unusual about the NHS is old people dying of malnutrition in their care and hundreds dying because the cleaners aren't made to clean the hospital properly with no sanction applied to the boss!

There are worse systems than the NHS but don't fall for this envy of the world balderdash. There are things in the UK that are The Envy of The World but the NHS ain't one of them.

There is something fairly unique about the NHS and that is free at point of use - in most other countries you have to have some sort of supplementary insurance or pay for appointments - in France for instance I think it's 23 euros for a GP appointment and 28 euros for a baby and some where in between if it's a child between 1 and 6.

You can get same day appointments at most surgeries - ours you ring up in the morning and you have an appointment the same day.

There are also walk in clinics in most towns - no appointment - don't have to be registered with a doctor and if you need a common medicine they give you it with no charge for the prescription.

I have had experience of the US system and it was second to none I saw a doctor and had a test carried out in the surgery and a course of antibiotics given. The cost was $800.

There is an OECD report from the end of last year that said the UK performed very well on preventative care and vaccinations and unplanned admissions for diabetics and some aspects of mental health. That it was improving in outcomes for patients with cancer and heart disease. So it's good in somethings and not so good in others - but improving.

If you think "dirty" hospitals and superbugs are unique to the UK you couldn't be more wrong - most western hospitals suffer from the same thing - Australia too - the difference is the UK has been reporting superbug infections and Australia hasn't.....until last year.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/superbugs-at-hospitals-revealed/story-e6frg8y6-1226178868521

Also malnutrition in the elderly in hospital is not unique in the UK, far from it.

Many elderly Australians are either admitted to hospital suffering malnutrition, or become malnourished while in hospital,

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110208101322.htm

Other countries may have fabulous healthcare systems where superbugs and malnutrition in the elderly in hospital doesn't exist - but I somehow doubt it.