BBC One tonight: Poor America

WhiteHorse

Norfolk_Jim wrote: »

I'd rather live with taxes than live with my guts poking out and not a hope in hell of paying for the operation.

No doubt, but the point here is that we are paying for a standard of service that we are not receiving.

The NHS isnt perfect, it will never be perfect, but its better than most in this world have access to.

"We are not quite as incompetent and corrupt as everyone else" is hardly an excuse.

Perhaps the NHS tries to do too much but its one of the few things out there I would fight to defend.

Indeed, but then why does it do so much that it shouldn't?

WhiteHorse

Norfolk_Jim wrote: »

But you do to believe that a survival of the fittest system where the poorest are left to suffer (and hopefully die before they cost the rich too much) is somehow the best way for any society

Polarisation is the politicians game. They set the options - either trash the NHS and privatise everything, or worship it and allow billions to be poured into the black hole.

The truth is in between.

The NHS is a good thing, but it is badly run and its defects are either covered up (or exposed, as it suits the politicians agenda at the time).

The NHS should remain, but should be ruthlessly streamlined, a process that need not involve privatisation or any cuts to truly essential services.

As far as political brainwashing goes, I don't think the UK has anything to teach the USA

Americans can be obnoxious, granted.

On the other hand they will see a problem, complain and get things done, whereas the British just buy into the politicians lies over and over again.

stonethrower

I had very little to do with the NHS until recently and if this id the envy of the world,I'll eat my hat. The system is a joke from top to bottom.
My wife is pregnant and she has had a few minor complications but every time we go into the hospital to see someone I have to explain these complications to the person I am talking to. It seems impossible for them to write these on her notes.
When we went to an all day ante natal class we were supposed to see some slides but they didn't have a projector. Then we were given a list of what to bring into the hospital, No. 2 on the list is and this is word for word. Your own pillows,as pillows are like gold dust on the labour ward.

ash28

WhiteHorse wrote: »

"Free at point of delivery" does not mean free. Politicians always employ this phrase in order to make it seem as if the public is being given something for nothing.


Unlike us, they don't pay swinging taxes beforehand.

I think most people know that "free at point of delivery" doesn't mean it's actually free and that like most things the NHS has to paid for - but "free at point of delivery" suits me fine.

Plenty of other countries pay swingeing taxes - you just need to look at "tax freedom day" for various countries and there are plenty of higher taxed countries who don't have a "free at point of delivery" health system.

http://www.institutmolinari.org/tax-freedom-day-belgian-employees,1194.html

Why do people think the UK is the highest taxed country with the worst healthcare system in the developed world?

The NHS isn't perfect, far from it, does it need some sort of reform - without a doubt, but perhaps not the reforms being put forward by Andrew Lansley....

Some of the good health care systems such as Japan, you are half as likely to have a heart attack - but twice as likely to die if you do. Spain, where you need someone to look after and feed you if you are in hospital aren't perfect either.

Personally I have had no bad experiences of the NHS - we have a grandson living with us who has eye problems due to prematurity - the eye clinic at the Royal Berks in Reading have been absolutely first class - improving his vision to a point where he will no longer be registered blind if he loses his good eye and will be able to live a normal life - drive etc....

And son born with a heart condition, the NHS have been first rate through out his life and he is 31 - he had an episode a few weeks back and was seen by a consultant within a week (much to everyone's surprise) had a barrage of tests - tilt test, bubble test, scans etc - again first rate.

Even down to care of the elderly our experience has been postive.

All I can say to those who the think the health service stinks and the tax regime is too onerous and find the UK as bad as they say they do, is to do a Generali and get out of Dodge....

elantan

i've found alot of the time people will not discuss the standards of care recieved from the nursing staff .. it's as if the nursing staff are some sort of semi gods that cant be spoken unfavourably of ...

the n.h.s needs overhauled, it needs sorting out , but sadly it is used as a political pawn by the people in power, we need to be careful that we dont allow it to have till it gets to the stage where we the people are crying out for privatisation

Generali

elantan wrote: »

i've found alot of the time people will not discuss the standards of care recieved from the nursing staff .. it's as if the nursing staff are some sort of semi gods that cant be spoken unfavourably of ...

the n.h.s needs overhauled, it needs sorting out , but sadly it is used as a political pawn by the people in power, we need to be careful that we dont allow it to have till it gets to the stage where we the people are crying out for privatisation

IME NHS nurses don't really provide much in the way of care. My son was born by Ceasar and his nappy was never changed in 4 days in hospital. Mrs Generali was unable to get up to change him so he was left to lie in his own pi55 until I came to the hospital.

When I pointed out that perhaps a nurse could get off her !!!! and do a bit of nursing I was told I was "clueless".

Rich people should subsidize the health care of poor people. The NHS is a lousy way to do that IMHO.

pawlala

stonethrower wrote: »

Your own pillows,as pillows are like gold dust on the labour ward.

I'd take my own pillows even if they had an overflowing room full, I know where they've been.

vivatifosi

Generali wrote: »

IME NHS nurses don't really provide much in the way of care. My son was born by Ceasar and his nappy was never changed in 4 days in hospital. Mrs Generali was unable to get up to change him so he was left to lie in his own pi55 until I came to the hospital.

When I pointed out that perhaps a nurse could get off her !!!! and do a bit of nursing I was told I was "clueless".

Rich people should subsidize the health care of poor people. The NHS is a lousy way to do that IMHO.

Sounds a bit like when my Mum had her double breast cancer procedure and couldn't move either arm and they just left her food in front of her and took it away when it wasn't eaten. The same nurses also thought she was a psycho-freak for thinking she had spiders crawling over her skin without giving consideration to the fact she was having an extreme allergy to the medicine she'd been put on and that wasn't her normal state of mind. The two times since then that DH has been in hospital we've paid for private nursing and bed alongside the NHS op and the difference in care is staggering.

ruggedtoast

Generali wrote: »

IME NHS nurses don't really provide much in the way of care. My son was born by Ceasar and his nappy was never changed in 4 days in hospital. Mrs Generali was unable to get up to change him so he was left to lie in his own pi55 until I came to the hospital.

When I pointed out that perhaps a nurse could get off her !!!! and do a bit of nursing I was told I was "clueless".

Rich people should subsidize the health care of poor people. The NHS is a lousy way to do that IMHO.

That's dreadful, but not surprising.

I was furious with the way my wife was treated when she gave birth. After being sent home as soon as we arrived by a midwife who was changing shifts and didnt want to be bothered with a new patient, we had to drive straight back to the hospital.

She was then left on her own for ages and I had to go and complain to get anybody who could be bothered to look at her. They then, as if it was no big deal at all, told her she couldnt have an epidural as that bit of the hospital was "full".

In a moment of utter surreality I will always remember some unhelpful b1tch then reeled off a few names of painkillers and their clinical indications and then told her, to basically choose which one she thought was most suitable based on her state.

They then decided that so much time had passed by that point with them !!!!ing us about that she was too far gone for any painkillers at all and had to go the next 12 hours on gas an air. Things only improved a bit when the shift changed and we got a load of trainee midwifes who were lovely, the qualified ones could not have cared less.

This was Watford General by the way, more than happy to name and shame. Tragically this is meant to be the best hospital in our location that we had to choose from, as opposed to the one that had been put on special measures for maternal mortality.

This is just one anecdote from dozens of personal experiences I have had with the NHS, a very few experiences have been fine, but on the whole it is poor value for taxpayer money to say the least, and a great many of the people who work in it are not worth the money they are paid.

A._Badger

Norfolk_Jim wrote: »

As far as political brainwashing goes, I don't think the UK has anything to teach the USA

Then I suggest your political views are so hardened against any possibility of change that you are beyond rational argument.

At least I hear debate in the USA. Here all we get is knee-jerk genuflection to a broken dream and the howling down of any criticism from those too blinkered to admt even the possibility of improvement.

Even Tories hardly dare raise a voice in criticism, despite appallingly filthy and dangerous hospitals, gross and profligate over-management, huge waste on computer systems that don't work, poor clinical outcomes (in some areas), overpaid and lazy GPs, non-existent our of hours coverage in some areas, post code rationing of medication, medical staff who can barely communicate with their patients...

But no, nothing is wrong say the three 'wise' monkeys. It's 'the envy of the world' and no one must suggest otherwise.