BBC One tonight: Poor America

Generali

lionelator wrote: »

In your opinion. Though it doesn't sound like you're even in the country ATM and yet you're on a UK based forum, Im not surprised you're talking up the system where you are at the moment, but having lived and worked in both Australia and the UK Im happy to say the system here, to me, works far far better.
Of course its not perfect, and yes it needs streamlining and updating, some occasions can be unpleasant yes, thats the case with any system.
However, in the end, it comes down to your opinion vs mine.
Im not sure what to make of your opinion, you're happy to put money into healthcare in Australia, but won't compare with the true equivalent here, NHS plus private insurance, for example with BUPA.
Theres enough studies to show the UK comes up top of the world in various forms of healthcare provision. Ive provided the link to one.
Therefore I dispute your suggestion that other systems come up with better outcomes, particularly with a similar spend.

I live outside the UK at present as do several other posters to this forum. That's the joy of the internet, I can annoy dumb people across several time zones.

Just a thought before I go off to enjoy the watching the Sydney kangaroos boxing in the summer sun: if the NHS is the best system in the world, why doesn't it have the best outcomes?

Toodle pip old fruit!

A._Badger

Generali wrote: »

I live outside the UK at present as do several other posters to this forum. That's the joy of the internet, I can annoy dumb people across several time zones.

Just a thought before I go off to enjoy the watching the Sydney kangaroos boxing in the summer sun: if the NHS is the best system in the world, why doesn't it have the best outcomes?

Toodle pip old fruit!

Oh don't worry, Generali - all the usual suspects (The BBC, Guardian, The Kings Fund, The medical trade unions (led by the worst of them all, the BMA)) will work through the night to torture the outcome figures 'proving' that the NHS is still 'the envy of the world'.

Even when it isn't.

Generali

A._Badger wrote: »

Oh don't worry, Generali - all the usual suspects (The BBC, Guardian, The Kings Fund, The medical trade unions (led by the worst of them all, the BMA)) will work through the night to torture the outcome figures 'proving' that the NHS is still 'the envy of the world'.

Even when it isn't.

AIUI, the argument goes that some Americans receive poor medical treatment therefore the 6,700,000,000 non-Americans are crying out for the NHS rather than the systems that they voted for and keep voting for (if they have a vote).

The fact that Aussies, Japanese and Swiss people spend similar amounts of their annual output on healthcare and yet live longer lives is irrelevant apparently as is the lack of a single word that I am aware of being written by a Japanese, Australian or Swiss health
Minister calling for the introduction of an NHS.

Norfolk_Jim

That the average American and even many of the poor ones hate the idea of an NHS says more about the success of the OTT anti socialist brainwashing of the American people than it does about desire for a NHS. The ones that don't want an NHS for non politcal resons appear to have lower than average poverty and a strong family unit

wellused

They see the NHS as state interference which to them is akin to communism instead they prefer to believe in self reliance and each person being responsible for themselves.

A._Badger

Norfolk_Jim wrote: »

That the average American and even many of the poor ones hate the idea of an NHS says more about the success of the OTT anti socialist brainwashing of the American people than it does about desire for a NHS. The ones that don't want an NHS for non politcal resons appear to have lower than average poverty and a strong family unit

"anti socialist brainwashing" vs. "pro socialist brainwashing"

It hardly advances the argument, does it?

The NHS will never be improved if people blindly believe it is beyond reproach.

And it ain't.

WhiteHorse

lionelator wrote: »

Try again Generali.
The NHS is envied the world over by people who understand what it provides.

No, the NHS is envied by people who think they know what it's like.

It might be better than what they have (if indeed, they have anything at all), but that can't be used to gloss over corruption and incompetence in this country.

WhiteHorse

ash28 wrote: »

There is something fairly unique about the NHS and that is free at point of use ...

"Free at point of delivery" does not mean free. Politicians always employ this phrase in order to make it seem as if the public is being given something for nothing.

...in most other countries you have to have some sort of supplementary insurance or pay for appointments.

Unlike us, they don't pay swinging taxes beforehand.

Norfolk_Jim

I'd rather live with taxes than live with my guts poking out and not a hope in hell of paying for the operation.
The NHS isnt perfect, it will never be perfect, but its better than most in this world have access to.
The very rich can look after themselves if they choose to but they should not forget that much of the time they get rich off the not very rich. Sure you can find a few rich who got rich off providing a service to the very rich, but in general we are all linked together to some extent. It isn't the rich who have to cut back on their spending, get repossed or wind you up by overextending themselves with credit that largely makes the banks rich and then walk away from it.
Perhaps the NHS tries to do too much but its one of the few things out there I would fight to defend.

Norfolk_Jim

A._Badger wrote: »

"anti socialist brainwashing" vs. "pro socialist brainwashing"

It hardly advances the argument, does it?

The NHS will never be improved if people blindly believe it is beyond reproach.

And it ain't.

There is no need for any "pro socialist" brainwashing - the general public dont need to be brainwashed to recognise a good deal most of the while - But you do to believe that a survival of the fittest system where the poorest are left to suffer (and hopefully die before they cost the rich too much) is somehow the best way for any society - No doubt they'd also lambast Jesus for not charging a consultancy fee or setting up a healthcare plan while he was about it.
As far as political brainwashing goes, I don't think the UK has anything to teach the USA