XBOX 360 are they starting to take the mick??

grimsalve

jamespir wrote: »

a lot of us cant afford to buy new and to be fair id get it in the neck from the missus if i did

so second hand is my only option really but then i have to shell out to play online as well as the money im already paying microsoft

Just playing devils advocate here - you could of course NOT buy any games at all, sell your games console, cancel your broadband, etc. and use the money to buy nice little surprise gifts for your OH

liam_h

I work in the games industry (in a journalist capacity) and wanted to clear some things up. Some of these points have been mentioned.

The pass to play online is a code you receive when buying the game new. As publishers or developers receive nothing from the multi-million £ industry surrounding used games, you can understand why they want to make some money from used games. There are talks on going about the publishers/developers receiving a % from the sale of used games - only right and I hope it happens otherwise the pre-owned market will pretty much die, and as mentioned, it's needed!

Microsoft want to make sure their gold membership has greater benefits than the silver. This is why you need gold to use services such as Sky, Lovefilm, Netflix and 4OD.

WelshBluebird

People seem to forget that MS isn't EA (or any other third party publisher)
If EA want to charge a fee for online pay for those who buy the game second hand, then that is EA. Not MS. You cannot blame microsoft for that.

Mr_Toad

liam_h wrote: »

I work in the games industry (in a journalist capacity) and wanted to clear some things up. Some of these points have been mentioned.

The pass to play online is a code you receive when buying the game new. As publishers or developers receive nothing from the multi-million £ industry surrounding used games, you can understand why they want to make some money from used games. There are talks on going about the publishers/developers receiving a % from the sale of used games - only right and I hope it happens otherwise the pre-owned market will pretty much die, and as mentioned, it's needed!

Microsoft want to make sure their gold membership has greater benefits than the silver. This is why you need gold to use services such as Sky, Lovefilm, Netflix and 4OD.

But is it right that console owners should be penalised and pay extra for the games and again for on-line access when PC owners can play on-line and use Sky, Lovefilm & Netflix without any extra payments.

As much as I'd love a console I look at them and wonder why they are as popular as they are given the costs of games etc..

Is it because they're smaller and neater than the average gaming PC or peer pressure amongst users, I was going to say kids but it isn't just kids.

I'd appreciate people's views

jamespir

grimsalve wrote: »

Just playing devils advocate here - you could of course NOT buy any games at all, sell your games console, cancel your broadband, etc. and use the money to buy nice little surprise gifts for your OH

you dont know my oh then lol

pitkin2020

liam_h wrote: »

I work in the games industry (in a journalist capacity) and wanted to clear some things up. Some of these points have been mentioned.

The pass to play online is a code you receive when buying the game new. As publishers or developers receive nothing from the multi-million £ industry surrounding used games, you can understand why they want to make some money from used games. There are talks on going about the publishers/developers receiving a % from the sale of used games - only right and I hope it happens otherwise the pre-owned market will pretty much die, and as mentioned, it's needed!

Microsoft want to make sure their gold membership has greater benefits than the silver. This is why you need gold to use services such as Sky, Lovefilm, Netflix and 4OD.

So what your saying is game developers want a slice of the cake twice?? They have received their revenue from the sale of new goods, just like every single product in the world. Developers should not receive a single penny from pre owned games, sorry to say but consumers don't like to pay for things twice, in fact some will even go as far as not to buy once.

I know plenty of people who bought call of duty 4 pre owned as the reviews for call of duty 3 weren't great. As for 4 was by the best they pretty much all had the next in the series on pre order. If they hadn't of tried the game from a pre-owned point they may not have bothered buying new.

Whats next when you buy a preowned DVD you will have to pay for a voucher to be able to watch it or when you buy a pre owned car you will have to pay to get the keys.

pitkin2020

custardy wrote: »

fair enough,I'll give you that
I do wish they would do a 360 live membership to activate one console,rather than one account
as long as you dont play on other folks consoles of course


PS you can get 4 gold memberships for £69.99 or less under the family pack

I know they now do four memberships for £69.99 but if you only need 2 you'll get it £10 cheaper buying of the likes of ebay or even asda as they had it in for £30.

The console should be what is xbox live enabled though not the account, or at the very least if one account (the main account) has an xbox live account the other accounts should be able to access gold content also.

pitkin2020

masonn wrote: »

But is it right that console owners should be penalised and pay extra for the games and again for on-line access when PC owners can play on-line and use Sky, Lovefilm & Netflix without any extra payments.

As much as I'd love a console I look at them and wonder why they are as popular as they are given the costs of games etc..

Is it because they're smaller and neater than the average gaming PC or peer pressure amongst users, I was going to say kids but it isn't just kids.

I'd appreciate people's views

Consoles for me can't match a PC, especially on the setup cost. A decent gaming pc will cost you far more than a 360/ps3 unless your able to build it yourself, but even then the cost is still quite high.

I have no issue with paying microsoft to play games online, your basically using their servers and that does cost money. I do have an issue with having to pay to use services that are provided FOC such as demand 5 and 4 on demand. As well as services such as lovefilm where I am a subscriber.

I must admit I do miss the simplicity of the PS2 where you bought a game and you played it. Now you buy a game, you pay to play it online, you have to pay again if you want a 2nd account to be able to play online, you pay again when they release an add on to extend the life of the game (which isn't so annoying). A £40 game ends up costing closer to £100 in the end.

If you have 2 kids who both want to play its not a cheap business

vyle

Warning, this is a LONG post but should answer all the questions from this thread. In most cases I am explaining the logical reasoning behind the publishers' decisions, not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with them.

jamespir wrote: »

so second hand is my only option really but then i have to shell out to play online as well as the money im already paying microsoft

If you wait a bit, you can still get new games, with the online codes, relatively cheap.

Dragon age Origins is awesome, had a DLC code bundled new (was one of the first "project $10" games) and the code still works and it only costs about £10 now.

The theory is (or was) that the need for a code to play online would de-value preowned games, so that you wouldn't need to pay much extra. Right now, Game and co. are charging near enough full RRP for a preowned game. If people stop buying them, and buy new, or don't buy at all, they will have to lower their prices, which will effectively absorb the extra cost of paying to get the withheld content.

ItsJuicy wrote: »

Same with the film and music industry, but you don't see them moaning as much

Really? Like trying to get tape recording banned, banning VCRs, DRM on MP3s meaning that if you bought something legitimately, you couldn't use it on anything other than the device on which you purchased it?

Song BMG hiding spyware on CDs so you couldn't use them in a computer if you had the potential capability to copy the CD?

DVDs that will not run in a computer "just in case."

Then you've got SOPA and PIPA which were largely backed by the RIAA and MPAA as a means to limit consumer choice.

No, the record and music industries are just as bad, really.

and as I said before, what about other second hand items, such as cars?

Well, see, the point is that when you buy a used car, most people do not expect it to run as well as a new car. You get less of a warranty, and you inherit all of the issues and niggles it's developed, with far less of a right to reply against them. Used cars are cheaper BECAUSE of the degredation.

Going back to the car analogy (or, actually, my other half's motorbike) -- If he bought a second hand bike, other than a very limited warranty from the dealer, any big malfunctions and he'd be buying parts from Honda and paying the dealer to repair them.

Buying new, Honda foots the bill up to a certain point, as a reward, if you will, for buying new.

In the case of most used devices, and even books, you are not purchasing something in pristine quality or condition. That is why they are cheaper than a full price item.

With a game, if it's used or not, in form and function it is IDENTICAL to a new game. The only thing you lose is the shrink wrap and that delicious "new manual" smell (but as manuals are being phased out, that'll soon be gone).

So what the publishers are doing is "adding value" to a new purchase.

masonn wrote: »

But is it right that console owners should be penalised and pay extra for the games and again for on-line access when PC owners can play on-line and use Sky, Lovefilm & Netflix without any extra payments.

As much as I'd love a console I look at them and wonder why they are as popular as they are given the costs of games etc..

Is it because they're smaller and neater than the average gaming PC or peer pressure amongst users, I was going to say kids but it isn't just kids.

As someone with all the consoles, and a high end gaming PC, I see the benefits to all of them.

Firstly, with PC, its power is immense, and stuff like Witcher 2 is gorgeous beyond compare. The mod scene is awesome, you can set up dedicated custom servers for online play, and with a decent set of speakers or headphones, it's the ideal solution.

However!

It's not "simple." There are far more, and larger, patches for PC games, because of compatability issues with certain equipment. For instance, while my graphics card can run mirror's edge on full settings, because the game was optimised for nvidia, the game wouldn't run at all, until I found a driver workaround (or something).

To get the most out of PC gaming, you need to be au fait with what every component does and why. You need to be able to seek out fixes, and while it is miles easier than the dreaded windows 95 days, it's still not simple. Not even with the likes of Steam giving a helping hand.

And then there are things like EA Origin, which is evil, and will arbitrarily steal games from you. There was that guy who had battlefield 1942 on a disk, and played it happily for many years, until origin "detected" it as a stolen game, because it's now available THROUGH origin, and disabled it. He couldn't activate the game through the origin key detector because it was too old, so was told he had to buy it new, because the terms of use had changed.

There's Ubisoft's "always on" drm, meaning you can't play games if your internet connection drops out.

It's a minefield, and expensive. My graphics card was £250, plus i needed a decent monitor, which was another £150, and the main tower, with my i7 processor and 6gb ram -- another £600. An upgraded psu -- I think that was £25.

I use my pc for other stuff as well, but to get the kind of thing that will play games noticably better than a ps3 or a 360, you need to invest far more money, and with console generations lasting longer, they're becoming a very good catch-all solution for a relatively low price, especially as most people already have a TV to plug the console into.

Don't forget, as well, that when using the likes of netflix and 40d online through a computer, you're being bombarded with adverts at all sides. Through a console, it's a far more direct, relatively advert free affair. You're not getting the pop-ups, and banner ads, but because of that, the companies aren't getting the ad revenue they get from PC users.

pitkin2020 wrote: »

So what your saying is game developers want a slice of the cake twice?? They have received their revenue from the sale of new goods, just like every single product in the world. Developers should not receive a single penny from pre owned games, sorry to say but consumers don't like to pay for things twice, in fact some will even go as far as not to buy once.

Again, the problem is that with other pre-owned sales, say, a telephone, or something else, you're paying for the goods, and you use the goods. They are self contained. Now, you're paying for the goods, but EXPECTING the company to continue investing in the infrastructure to maintain the game online, and to deliver patches and whatnot to you.

Now, when it comes to online you could argue that if there were 1000 people online who bought new, and they got rid of the game, and those 1000 were sold pre-owned, it's the same income and the same number of players, so it's fine. However, if they're also delivering large patches, and free DLC to another thousand, that's taking FROM the developers/publishers without you giving them anything to continue the service.

pitkin2020 wrote: »

Technically not true. Yes you get 1 code to play online if you buy new, which is fine if your the only one playing the game.

In my house 2 of us play and no doubt as the kids get older they will want to play so not only do I have to buy xbox gold for each account (family accounts are now available) but I will also have to pay 800 points for the 2nd account to be able to play online.

That is one issue with games. They are viewed as "software" And you're not buying the game, but the right for yourself to use it. That's where PC gaming/steam have got it right. You can buy giftpacks of games, where you're getting, three or more copies of the game to distribute to other users for a highly discounted price.

pitkin2020 wrote: »

There are cheaper alternatives but that isn't the point. You could buy a PS3 and watch 4 on demand and play games online for no extra cost.

Indeed you can, but also the ps3 network infastructure is inferior. It's down far more often than XBL, and it's a lot slower, too, when it comes to downloading. You do get what you pay for. It also lacks many of the options and the flexability of xbox live.

pitkin2020 wrote: »

I don't how these "passport" games work on the PS3 as the online gaming is free so how can they charge if you don't have the code?

The actual multiplayer part of the game is locked, so while the service is free, you cannot access it, unless you have the DLC that enables you to access the feature.

Mr_Toad

vyle wrote: »

Warning, this is a LONG post but should answer all the questions from this thread.

Good points well made, thank you. It helps to hear it from someone familiar with both PC and consoles.