please can someone help!

findlay31

hi this is my first post so bear with me!
i work for a company that supplies us the (work force)with company vans to get to and from site,as things are getting tight they have decided to take some vans off people and have said that you have to find your own way to work,so that's no van or fuel card,and now you have to supply the van and pay the running costs,is this right can they do this?
on our contract states that you get picked up and dropped off every night but for a number of people this is not possible due to where they live.we get paid mileage with our work vans but when you use your own car/van you will get the same, so is there a law against this sort of thing i thought there was equal rights,or is this persecution against a single person.any help would be gratefully appreciated,they have also started giving wage decreases,can they just say you are having a pay cut...

SarEl

Where do single people get into this? Can they do this without notice - not the cut in pay, but possibly the vans. It isn't the employers problem to get you to and from work. But in the end - yes they could do it all legally if they do it right. It seems its that or other cut backs. And those are likely to be redundancies.

findlay31

this single person is the one that is losing his van but the rest of the company are keeping there ones,as we work in construction,we are working all over England and when we started we were given vans to get to and from,what i'm asking is can they just stop with the vans and tell you to get to the site your working on on your own accord,they paid for everything as it is there vans,but one person has been told today that he was given the van over 1 year ago as a favor and now they want it back and find your own way

agrinnall

I think you must be wrong in your first post when you say 'we get paid mileage for our work vans' as you also mention a fuel card, under normal circumstances you can't be paid mileage if the company provides the vehicle and the fuel. So if they are going to pay mileage when you provide your own van that means you'll be in a similar position to now, other than having to pay for the van in the first place (which is obviously a serious expense which you'd rather not have).

I'm sure SarEl is right that they will be able to do this, so if you don't like it your only real option is to find another job I'm afraid.

findlay31

What it is.our company is based in Essex and we do construction work all over england,we all have vans that are owned by the company,and also a fuel card.it all started over a year ago that a laf started work with us on a temp- permanent contract,he used his own van and the company payed him £0.60 per mile,after a month or so the person had an crash and his van was off the road,our company then gave him a van and fuel card,we still get paid our miles we travel to and fro from the site we are on that day,week but at a lesser rate£0.14 per mile,now the company want to take back his van and fuel card and still pay him the same mileage as he is on now£0.14,all I need to know is can they legally do this.all our contract states is that as an employee of this company you will be picked up and stoped off from your house every day.but as our boss has said I done you a favour and now I want to stop the favour,as a man under contract to this company not have the same rights as the rest if us that still have the van and card.our sites can last up to 2 months at a time and tgen we go on to another.thanks for your help so far.

findlay31

We used to be paid 2 hrs a day travel time but that was changed to £0.14 per mile as we had new owners take over the company and this was a way of cutting costs 4 years ago.

SarEl

The employer has never said that they will not pay works mileage - i.e. not the element which relates to getting from your base to your work site. What they have said is that they are (a) not responsible for getting people to and from work, which is true and (b) that one person who did not start off with a works van, and who was in fact loaned one due to the fact that they crashed their own, can no longer have that works van - which is also their decision. There was no promise of a works van, and frankly if the person was employed on the basis of using their own vehicle they have had a whole year to sort this out, so have done quite well out of it. The bottom line is, nobody has a "right" to a van.

Acc72

findlay31 wrote: »

all I need to know is can they legally do this.

Why do you need to know this if you are not the employee in question ?

I also assume that you are not the union rep. as you would use another source for information.

If you are doing a mate a favour, then be careful how your actions may be interpreted as you may find that you are soon included in your companies cost saving plan (a cynical view maybe, but one to consider).

SarEl

Flying_Tiger wrote: »

I hear what you're saying SarEl, but.... if I understand Findlay31 correctly, they want to take the van back i.e. the guy provides his own van again AND keep the mileage rate at only £0.14 per mile - a rate that was used for fuel only and indeed corresponds to a fuel only rate i.e. not recompense for provision of a vehicle on top of the fuel only. I fully understand that. I also understand that no employer is legally obliged to ever reimburse mileage, even when "on the job". There is also no legal duty on an employer to treat people in the same way or have the same terms unless the reason for the difference is based on a protected characteristic - and this is not the case here, so the employer can do as they wish.

So it would appear that the employer is incorrect here, possibly an administrative mix-up, maybe deliberate,we don't know of course, but that seems to be the crux of it that the employer is attempting to have the employee provide a vehicle/van but just pay a fuel only rate. No - that is an assumption on your part based on the fact that you are assuming that employers have to pay at all. That doesn't seem right. Of course it also comes back to "what exactly does it say in the contract". There is also the actions of the parties which would appear to confirm that the employer was paying £0.60 per mile for provision of a vehicle by the employee - the employer cannot retract suddenly retract that and paying. Previously, maybe. But not now. There is no way that changing a mileage rate will be a sufficient breach to win a tribunal.

As to "the company have never said they would pay works mileage" - don't think I quite agree with you there SarEl. The company have said that they will collect from the employee's home and drop them back off at their home - that's as comprehensive as it gets i.e. it covers absolutely everything: from home to base and from base to site. OP didn't say that - they said that it says that in their contracts - doesn't mean that the contract of this other person says the same thing. In fact, since they took the job on the basis of using their own transport to get to and from work, and that was the arrangement, that is the only thing that is clear here. I am familiar with the industry which Findlay31 is in and it is totally unheard of for someone to have to find their own way from base to site - the company have duty to provide this and/or recompense this ordinarily as it could be as Findlay31 says to practically anywhere in England and that is absolutely the employer's responsibility - inaddition thereto the employer have also said that they will pick up and drop off to/from the employee's home - so the employee isn't even responsible for getting from their home to a local yard/depot either, that's as comprehensive as it gets to be picked up from home and dropped off. I too am familiar with the industry. You are basing your advice on what is the norm and what is good practice - there is nothing in lawthat says they must do this and so it is incorrect to assume that all employers in the industry do what others do.

Cutbacks are one thing but malpractice dressed up as cutbacks is something completely different. "Malpractice" as in not following good practice, or what others may do, is not "malpractice in law". In that event its rather more in the territory of unfair/taking advantage/exploitation. It certainly doesn't smeel right to me and its the industry I'm familiar with - I've never heard of anything like it and I'm often responsible for paying guys like this and with a degree in construction law as well. There seems to be a case for breach of contract here by the employer. To me this definitely smells and usually I'm on the employer's side paying guys like this.

Since I am rarely on the employers side, I am not sure what relevance this has. You are talking about what employers in this sector usually do, and I am talking about what the law says employers can and cannot do. They are far from being the same thing. The OP asked - "is there a law against this sort of thing?". The answer to that question is no, there is not. Your argument is not an argument that there is such a law - it is an argument for finding another employer!

SarEl

I am sorry - this is tosh. There is no LEGAL right to a van, or a mileage allowance. You can argue what is common practice all you like, but this does not make it the law. Even if there was a contractual right, and there is actually no evidence that there is, contractual conditions can be varied and enforced. If the OP wishes to follow your advice as though it were the law then they are welcome to do so (or rather, their mate is), but if they end up in a tribunal without a leg to stand on then I hope that you will be advising them as the continuing "rightness" of their position - because the law won't be supporting them.

You need to distinguish between law and common practice - they are different things.

SarEl

Flying_Tiger wrote: »

SarEl you seem totally confused and don't at all understand either what Findlay31 has said or indeed anything I've said.

I fully understand both. You are the one who does not know the difference between what employers do (practice) and what the law says. I am not interested in continuing a debate on why the law is the law. The OP may decide whether to accept your version or mine.