Greece...

Generali

At the risk of repeating myself the problem with Greece remains the same: too much debt to service.

If Greece was a person be she Helen Mirren or Helen McChav then she'd simply be bankrupted one way or another. Then she'd slowly climb her way back to solvency having had some or most of her debts written off.

If Greece was a South American or Asian country she'd simply say that she couldn't repay her debts and would tell her creditors what she could pay. The IMF would come in and help out with short and long term loans and get paid first in return.

Because Greece is in the Euro, Helen has to deal with no bankruptcy procedure, no way to force losses onto her creditors. She is supposed to force the poor of Greece to endure third world conditions and the middle classes to face the EU version of poverty basically because Germany and France weren't prepared to bail out BNP and Deutsche Bank.

About 10.9mn of 11mn Greeks are enduring hell to save the face of a couple of foreign banks. From the latest rumours at least the French have the decency to feel bad about that.

antrobus

Froggitt wrote: »

Telegraph this morning says Tsipras was expecting a yes vote, and hadn't prepared for what to do in the event of a no vote.

That is entirely possible. As I've argued previously on this thread, Tsipras called the referendum because he had nowhere else to go; it was gamble.

On the other hand, just because you don't expect something to happen, doesn't mean to say you can't prepare for it. In fact, most sensible governments put some effort into preparing for things that they don't expect to happen.

My suggestion would be that that preparations for what to do in the event of a no vote were all made by that man Varoufakis, but that Tsipras didn't like any of them.

antrobus

Generali wrote: »

At the risk of repeating myself the problem with Greece remains the same: too much debt to service.....

No, I think the problem with Greece is that its government has run out of money. Its revenues are insufficient to pay even its day-to-day bills, let alone make a dent in its debt pile.

Which is why Greece wants a third bailout; i.e more money.

mwpt

Generali wrote: »

At the risk of repeating myself the problem with Greece remains the same: too much debt to service.

If Greece was a person be she Helen Mirren or Helen McChav then she'd simply be bankrupted one way or another. Then she'd slowly climb her way back to solvency having had some or most of her debts written off.

If Greece was a South American or Asian country she'd simply say that she couldn't repay her debts and would tell her creditors what she could pay. The IMF would come in and help out with short and long term loans and get paid first in return.

Because Greece is in the Euro, Helen has to deal with no bankruptcy procedure, no way to force losses onto her creditors. She is supposed to force the poor of Greece to endure third world conditions and the middle classes to face the EU version of poverty basically because Germany and France weren't prepared to bail out BNP and Deutsche Bank.

About 10.9mn of 11mn Greeks are enduring hell to save the face of a couple of foreign banks. From the latest rumours at least the French have the decency to feel bad about that.

Are they enduring hell? I'm not out there but I'm always suspicious of socialists demanding more of other peoples money with threats of suffering. I don't doubt there are some news stories people can post showing some suffering but how bad is it in reality? People find ways to carry on generally.

Moving on to the other point about the original creditors being bailed out. I'll also repeat myself. If Greece had initially declared bankruptcy in 2010 instead of extend and pretend, would their situation have been any better than now? A contraction in living standards was always going to happen, regardless of the route they chose. As it happens, they had some debt relief and refinanced at lower terms. They also _continued to borrow more_. People who are arguing the humanitarian case ignore the point that it may have been worse for Greece if another route was taken.

I still see the die hard socialists over at HPC continue to spout the anti-austerity nonsense, with the false premise that austerity was meant to get Greece into growth. Austerity is about balancing the books and longer term growth. It was always going to result in a contraction of living standards as the false money disappeared and the real state of affairs was revealed. I mean, Greece's GDP is barely below 2010 levels which were already the result of excessive borrowing, and the anti-austerity crowd claim this as a point in their favour? Huh?!

Graham_Devon

mwpt wrote: »

Are they enduring hell?

Just one indicator. Nearly 60% youth unemployment.

Is that not hellish enough?

If not, how about pain relief meds being rationed? Those with arthritis having to reduce their medication (or cut it off altogether) and deal with the pain? If enduring physical pain isn't enough, what is?

mwpt wrote: »

I still see the die hard socialists over at HPC continue to spout the anti-austerity nonsense, with the false premise that austerity was meant to get Greece into growth.

It was. The recent report from the IMF shows that it was supposed to provide growth in order that the debts could be afforded.

mwpt

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Just one indicator. Nearly 60% youth unemployment.

Is that not hellish enough?

If not, how about pain relief meds being rationed? Those with arthritis having to reduce their medication (or cut it off altogether) and deal with the pain? If enduring physical pain isn't enough, what is?

That sounds pretty bad. If I were unemployed and destitute, living in an economic union, I'd move where the jobs were. Oh wait, I did.

Graham_Devon

mwpt wrote: »

That sounds pretty bad. If I were unemployed and destitute, living in an economic union, I'd move where the jobs were. Oh wait, I did.

Good for you.

It's not quite that easy though if you have no money to back your move up with.

You also need to remember that in Greece, family appears to be more important, often looking after each other. Just upping and leaving would be very difficult if you are leaving behind relatives who will suffer even more if you go.

lisyloo

If not, how about pain relief meds being rationed? Those with arthritis having to reduce their medication (or cut it off altogether) and deal with the pain? If enduring physical pain isn't enough, what is?

Are you sure this is the case? Do you have a link?
I read an article on the BBC recently and they said they were rationing meds so that there WAS enough to go around i.e. some don't have massive stocks at home whilst others suffer.
Just wondering what the real situation is because you can interpret "rationing" to mean avoiding people stock piling, to enduring chronic pain.

wotsthat

Graham_Devon wrote: »

It's not quite that easy though if you have no money to back your move up with.

Next Thursday a Greek can hop on Easyjet and be in London a couple of hours later for €80.

Graham_Devon

lisyloo wrote: »

Are you sure this is the case? Do you have a link?
I read an article on the BBC recently and they said they were rationing meds so that there WAS enough to go around i.e. some don't have massive stocks at home whilst others suffer.
Just wondering what the real situation is because you can interpret "rationing" to mean avoiding people stock piling, to enduring chronic pain.

It was on the news. Channel 4 I think around 3 days ago.