Greece...

alleycat`

I think this covers it quite nicely...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsaKgz1v-f8

wymondham

sounds like they are now after a new 2 year deal ...... last minute jobby.... time to buy a new can and paint it ready?

antrobus

wymondham wrote: »

sounds like they are now after a new 2 year deal ...... last minute jobby.... time to buy a new can and paint it ready?

Merkel has now put the kibosh on it; no negotiations until the result of the referendum is known.

antrobus

Graham_Devon wrote: »

....You appear to believe that further bailouts, further debt arrangements and increased debt will fix a collosal debt problem. We've tried that for 3 years, and, apart from bigger debt figures, were no furher forward. What's even bigger debt amounts going to achieve? Other than a respite for another couple of months?...

Actually I don't.

But the Greeks do. They want a third bailout, a new debt arrangement, and €29.1bn.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33325886

You really do not understand what is going on here, do you?:)

Graham_Devon

Default reclassified!

"Today, when a payment to the IMF was due, the payment was not made. That is not immediately a case of default. Rather, it is a delay in the repayment," said Ewald Nowotny, who heads Austria's central bank and sits on the ECB's decision-making Governing Council.

Graham_Devon

And secret documents have now been released. Documents from the Greek creditors admit that even with further bailout packages, Greek debt is unsustainable.

These secret documents are what the Greeks are being asked to vote on. Rumours that they will be kept secret in order that the Greeks can't access them before voting.

It states that even if every single reform was undertaken by Greece, their debt would still be 118% of GDP in 2030. Still above what the creditors themselves suggest is sustainable based on the Greek profile.

The document admits that significant concessions are necessary to improve Greece's chances of ridding itself permanently of it's debt problems.

In the creditors own words: “It is clear that the policy slippages and uncertainties of the last months have made the achievement of the 2012 targets impossible under any scenario”.

The IMF and the Troika know all of this. The document was sent out to all german MPs to accept before offering a deal.

The document also outlines the £35bn investment package offered to Greece. It shows there was less to this offer than Junker was suggesting yesterday.

The cash on offer is not an ad hoc investment but is actually an EU grant that is regularly available to all member states. And, as Süddeutsche Zeitung points out, accessing the cash requires a 15% co-financing in Greece’s case, which it cannot afford. Because of this, Greece has unspent sums from its €38bn 2007-2013 pot of available grants.

Secondly...

The cash would have been handed over in five tranches starting in June (as soon as the Greek parliament approved the proposals) to cover Greece’s financing needs. However, 93% of the funds would have gone straight to cover the cost of maturing debt for the duration of the extension.

So it's of no real help to Greece at all.

The document DOES include the pension reforms that Junker insisted did not exist. Infact, there are 7 areas of reform on pensions. So he basically stared down the TV cameras and simply lied to all of us.

And the most stupid thing of all?

Greece offered a corporation tax rate of 29% in the negotiations in order to make up the cash lost if they refused the VAT hike on restaurants. This was denied, as Germany wanted it increased to 28%.

Pathetic.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/30/greek-debt-troika-analysis-says-significant-concessions-still-needed

Landofwood

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Default reclassified!

What are you talking about? If you miss a credit card payment are you automatically defaulted? No.

Graham_Devon

antrobus wrote: »

Actually I don't.

But the Greeks do. They want a third bailout, a new debt arrangement, and €29.1bn.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33325886

You really do not understand what is going on here, do you?:)

Only you missed in your explanation that they want a RENEGOTIATED deal.

One that lets them stand on their feet. Not live on their knees.

One that isn't simply punishment.

One that allows negotiation on both sides to provide the best for Greece while raising the money the ECB wants to see raised. One that allows Greece to say "we can;t really agree with a higher rate of VAT on our key industry, but we will raise the same money with a 29% corporation tax rate". They can't have that though, as it's not what Merkel wants, regardless of whether the money is raised.

You'll get a round of applause for stating I don't understand, but I note you don't really have anything to say on anything the EU has done in all of this.

I think you'll find I understand perfectly. The EU is doing all it can to get rid of Syrzia.

mwpt

cepheus wrote: »

Difficult not to have sympathy with the Greeks in view of this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/29/where-did-the-greek-bailout-money-go?CMP=share_btn_tw

Why? The money went exactly where you'd expect it to go, to Greece's creditors so they didn't default on their sovereign debt. They effectively just refinanced at a lower rate.

If the money had gone into more public spending (ie. to the Greek 'people') then they still would have owed the existing debt, at higher rates, and still been unable to pay.

Thrugelmir

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Greek debt is unsustainable.

This hasn't been a secret for a very long time. Nor is the debt owed the real issue.