Greece...

melanzana

ChiefGrasscutter wrote: »

Well that's not as I saw it.
You were stupid enough to be bailing out the foreign banks bond holdings etc in Irish banks.
The main Irish bank to be bailed at maximum cost had very little domestic deposits, and could quite easily have been let go.
The only lesson learned is that your country is collectively stupid....the trigger point being when some blithering idiot in your government gave a 100% guarantee on all deposits.

Yes, we all know this about Anglo. And there is a Parliamentary Enquiry going on about it as we speak. Horse, stable door, bolted and all that I will grant you.

I personally am delighted they gave 100% guarantee on deposits. Doesn't seem to have had much negative fallout.

ROI is doing ok now.

Look forwards not backwards. :cool:

cepheus

lvader wrote: »

Because once interest rates shoot up again it will be impossible to turn around and do something about it. Also we still have a deficit of about 5% of GDP while in the the Eurozone overall it's less than 2.5%. i.e. we are still living way beyond our means at a time when the economy is doing quite well.

If interest rates go up it will be probably because of inflation, and this reduces debt anyway. Those with mortgages and home owners would be hit worst though. This government would do anything to prevent a house price crash, otherwise they would be toast, so rates will probably stay low. Fine with me if they soar though.

melanzana

Graham_Devon wrote: »

According to google, austerity in Ireland had a negative effect of 15%.

Greece are already well passed that level. In effect, you could double the austerity Ireland had to undergo and there would still be room for more austerity on top.

Greece have been under austerity measures for some time now, so they have been "taking their medicine" too. However, there comes a point when even the medicine isn't working and there is no future outlook.

The wealthy and those who could do so, avoided paying their taxes like the plague. It is a well known fact. So much for contributing to their country and helping the less well off.

Greece seems to blame everyone else but themselves.

They have been under austerity measures for years, because they would not introduce reforms to their systems. And they still refuse to do so.

Graham_Devon

melanzana wrote: »

The wealthy and those who could do so, avoided paying their taxes like the plague. It is a well known fact. So much for contributing to their country and helping the less well off.

Greece seems to blame everyone else but themselves.

They have been under austerity measures for years, because they would not introduce reforms to their systems. And they still refuse to do so.

Actually they have introduced many measures and reforms.

This is just one list from 2011...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13940431

People have undergone 15% wage cuts in the public sector. Then a further 20% cut....and more.

At the same time as the above, tax free income was reduced from 12k to 5k.

Hospital budgets have been cut by 25%. Infant mortality is up, malaria is up, HIV is up.

What line would YOU draw? To compare this to the austeroty Ireland underwent is an insult.

All well and good sitting on the sidelines, but living the reality is somewhat different.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

The people of Greece voted for an inexperienced party with delusional ideas of Greece's importance and economic situation, they now have an option to either indulge Syriza's vanity and commit economic suicide or endure continued austerity but come out the other side a healthy and functioning member of the Eurozone.

They may well choose pride over pragmatism.

But if they do the truly extraordinary suffering they will experience as a result will be entirely their own fault.

They will, after all, have voted for it in a democratic process.

I actually now almost hope they do...

It will serve as a lesson to the people of any other small over-indebted state from trying anything as stupid.

Graham_Devon

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

The people of Greece voted for an inexperienced party with delusional ideas of Greece's importance and economic situation, they now have an option to either indulge Syriza's vanity and commit economic suicide or endure continued austerity but come out the other side a healthy and functioning member of the Eurozone.

Good lord Hamish.

Take the blinkers off!

It would take, on current projections around 120 years to come out of the other side!!!

Wishing ill on people, preumably because it might well effect our economy (or maybe because it goes against everything you have said that it would never get this far) is poor form.

I_have_spoken

People have undergone 15% wage cuts in the public sector

Same as in Britain, allowing for RPI not the fiddled CPI

Graham_Devon

I_have_spoken wrote: »

Same as in Britain, allowing for RPI not the fiddled CPI

Maybe, but the figures for Greece are instant cuts. RPI will be on top.

melanzana

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Actually they have introduced many measures and reforms.

This is just one list from 2011...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13940431

People have undergone 15% wage cuts in the public sector. Then a further 20% cut....and more.

At the same time as the above, tax free income was reduced from 12k to 5k.

Hospital budgets have been cut by 25%. Infant mortality is up, malaria is up, HIV is up.

What line would YOU draw? To compare this to the austeroty Ireland underwent is an insult.

All well and good sitting on the sidelines, but living the reality is somewhat different.

I was at a conference in Madrid a few years ago with many EU colleagues.

The Greek rep was looking forward to retirement at 50 ( I think, we were all open mouthed at that!)

She also had an extra week or month holiday every year, sorry cannot remember what it was. Open mouthed again. This was natural to her.

I suppose my point is, that the decline of Greece's finances started many years ago and is only, in the last short while catching up with reality.

And of course, it is all very well to say that taxes have increased and so on, but if they DO NOT COLLECT it, and haven't properly for years, how will a Revenue official who has had all the paycuts and so on expected to be motivated to do so?

Graham_Devon

melanzana wrote: »

I was at a conference in Madrid a few years ago with many EU colleagues.

The Greek rep was looking forward to retirement at 50 ( I think, we were all open mouthed at that!)

She also had an extra week or month holiday every year, sorry cannot remember what it was. Open mouthed again. This was natural to her.

I suppose my point is, that the decline of Greece's finances started many years ago and is only, in the last short while catching up with reality.

And of course, it is all very well to say that taxes have increased and so on, but if they DO NOT COLLECT it, and haven't properly for years, how will a Revenue official who has had all the paycuts and so on expected to be motivated to do so?

I'd agree with some of that.

Greece did, though, have an EU official imposed on them for some time in order to sort many of these issues. He couldn't sort them either.

We simply have a case of politics intertwined with economics. The politics ensures Greece were invited into the EU and the Euro. The economics weren't ignored, but instead, fraudulent practices ensured that the economics worked.

The politics knew all along of all the problems you mention, but believed they could change Greece. But the EU is made up of very diverse nations. You can't change a country to conform with what's see as correct by a fierecly capitalist country and regime.

The politics and economics simply aren't working.

And never will.

The capitalists are imploding. It's going to get nasty. The little man (In my very humble opinion) is winning out here. This isn't an argument for socialism, but this capitalist experient has fundementally failed.

Something is wrong anyway when you can't transfer your money, or access your money within a monetry union. A union which holds freedom of movement as it's core principle.