Greece...

Froggitt

Graham_Devon wrote: »

It's because Greece, a small country, now threatens their EU project. It's because he's given the people a say, rather than the Eurocrats.

Aren't "the people" across Europe telling the Eurocrats that their EU project, as it is currently configured, is dead in the water? If they don't listed to the people, all sorts of barmy left and right wing groups will get elected to power across the continent....Syriza being the first.

antrobus

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Yes, indeed they are.

While I realise you sit firmly behind the EU on this one, surely you have to ask yourself why they are annoyed. ...

They are annoyed at the silly games that Tsipras has been playing. His sudden referendum decision was the last straw.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

...It's because he hasn't done what they wanted him to do. It's because Greece, a small country, now threatens their EU project. It's because he's given the people a say, rather than the Eurocrats. ...

In or out; Greece is no threat to the EU project.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

..What would further loans have done? This thread is 3 years old and talks about bailouts and how they simply cannot work. 3 years later the EU still wants to do the same thing, yet expect a different result. ...

Further loans is what Tsipras wants. It's in the Thessaloniki programme.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

....One small political party could be the start of a long road towards the end of the EU. That's what they are so hacked off. It's one thing to pass such harsh measures on to one small country to keep things going. It's another to have that one small country turn the screw the other way.

You might want it to be so, but I supect you will be disappointed.

melanzana

I am in ROI at the moment.

I was also here in 2011 and 2012.

The difference between then and now is unbelievable.

Irish people sucked it up and took their medicine. They were NOT happy about it, but they seem to have survived and prospered. Hopefully having learned some lessons too.

Graham_Devon

antrobus wrote: »

They are annoyed at the silly games that Tsipras has been playing. His sudden referendum decision was the last straw.

He does not have a mandate to accept the terms of the new austerity package. He is therefore putting it to the people. Other countries have far more referendums than we get a chance to have.

He is doing the correct thing, democratically, in asking the people of Greece (those paying in several ways afterall) if they wish to accept.

You may well call it silly games....and as I said, your position on it is, and has been extremely clear, you will back the EU whatever here. Opinions will be divided on all of this, and I respect your opinion. However, democracy trumps our opinions, and that's the way it should be.

As for games, they have been played from every angle. The suggestion from Germany that they should "ring fence Greece and cut off all humanitarian support" if they don't accept their "generous" offer was a game of threat. A disgusting one at that.

The games have been played for years now. It's just this time, one is coming out on top. And it's not the EU.

Games, I may add, within the EU, is precisely why Greece were allowed into the Euro currency. Games which the EU employed.

Graham_Devon

melanzana wrote: »

I am in ROI at the moment.

I was also here in 2011 and 2012.

The difference between then and now is unbelievable.

Irish people sucked it up and took their medicine. They were NOT happy about it, but they seem to have survived and prospered. Hopefully having learned some lessons too.

According to google, austerity in Ireland had a negative effect of 15%.

Greece are already well passed that level. In effect, you could double the austerity Ireland had to undergo and there would still be room for more austerity on top.

Greece have been under austerity measures for some time now, so they have been "taking their medicine" too. However, there comes a point when even the medicine isn't working and there is no future outlook.

I_have_spoken

Greece has also run out of medicine

ChiefGrasscutter

melanzana wrote: »

I am in ROI at the moment.

I was also here in 2011 and 2012.

The difference between then and now is unbelievable.

Irish people sucked it up and took their medicine. They were NOT happy about it, but they seem to have survived and prospered. Hopefully having learned some lessons too.

Well that's not as I saw it.
You were stupid enough to be bailing out the foreign banks bond holdings etc in Irish banks.
The main Irish bank to be bailed at maximum cost had very little domestic deposits, and could quite easily have been let go.
The only lesson learned is that your country is collectively stupid....the trigger point being when some blithering idiot in your government gave a 100% guarantee on all deposits.

antrobus

Graham_Devon wrote: »

He does not have a mandate to accept the terms of the new austerity package. He is therefore putting it to the people. Other countries have far more referendums than we get a chance to have.

He is doing the correct thing, democratically, in asking the people of Greece (those paying in several ways afterall) if they wish to accept.

You may well call it silly games.......

It was a given that the bailout deal expired on the 30th June, and that something needed to be agreed before that date.

To negotiate right up to the wire, and then announce on the 27th June (three days before the deadline) to hold a referendum that will only take place five days after the deadline is preposterously ridiculous. If Tsipras genuinely believed that some kind of democratic mandate was needed to confirm the deal available (or not) he could have announced that weeks, if not months ago.

The point is that Syriza have conducted the negotiations in the belief that the threat of Grexit, and the resulting 'collapse of the Euro', would get them what they wanted from the Eurogroup. (See repeated statements by Varoufakis such as "The euro is fragile, it's like building a castle of cards, if you take out the Greek card the others will collapse".) They were sadly deluded in that belief. That delusion became apparent on Friday. Tsipras was therefore faced with the choice with either (a) signing up to the kind of agreement that he said he wouldn't do, or (b) kissing goodbye to the Euro, which he said he wouldn't do either.

Given that choice, he has decided to let somebody else make it for him. He had nowhere else to go.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

.......and as I said, your position on it is, and has been extremely clear, you will back the EU whatever here. Opinions will be divided on all of this, and I respect your opinion. ....

I don't particularly back the Eurogroup at all. But their approach to Greece has been entirely predictable given the rules of the Euro game.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

...However, democracy trumps our opinions, and that's the way it should be....

Accountancy trumps democracy every time.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

....As for games, they have been played from every angle. The suggestion from Germany that they should "ring fence Greece and cut off all humanitarian support" if they don't accept their "generous" offer was a game of threat. A disgusting one at that. ...

Google shows no results for the quote "ring fence Greece and cut off all humanitarian support".

Graham_Devon wrote: »

...The games have been played for years now. It's just this time, one is coming out on top. And it's not the EU.

Games, I may add, within the EU, is precisely why Greece were allowed into the Euro currency. Games which the EU employed.

Games are always being played. It helps to understand the rules of the game you are playing.

silverwhistle

Graham_Devon wrote: »

According to google, austerity in Ireland had a negative effect of 15%.

Whilst I agree austerity isn't helping the Greek economy the difference seems to be that RoI grasped the nettle a bit earlier and didn't, according to the popular current metaphor, keep kicking the can down the road.

I was listening to the (previous ISTR) Greek finance minister on the radio this afternoon, and he was going on about how the EU was ignoring the democratic process and the peoples' decision. My reaction was !!!!!!? They can make any decision they want, but decisions have consequences, and those consequences may not be ones you like.

There's been a lot of criticism by Greece of the Troika but precious little (at least I've seen none) mea culpa. It's difficult not being party to all the details and understanding them would be a full time job, but I have never known such unanimity and less than diplomatic language from a whole range of politicians from other countries. These include states such as Slovenia and Estonia with a significant lower GDP than Greece. It's like the old joke of a mum watching a military parade: "Everybody is out of step except my Johnny".

Having said all that I've no idea what the solution is. Debt write-off seemed a possibility, but why stop at Greece. Also, they'd still need some liquidity and I'm not sure who'd be prepared to lend to them. In addition they don't appear to want to change anything unless they are forced to, so how long before the whole issue raises it's ugly head again? You lend a tenner to your friend Fred pretty well knowing you're not going to get it back but they are a friend, you do it a second time, but a third? Your friend Doris borrows as she's more reliable, but then she has problems..."You never asked Fred to pay you back"...

The ECB's remit and legal obligation is to help maintain cash flow and solvency, not support fundamentally insolvent organisations.

Graham_Devon

antrobus wrote: »

To negotiate right up to the wire, and then announce on the 27th June (three days before the deadline) to hold a referendum that will only take place five days after the deadline is preposterously ridiculous. If Tsipras genuinely believed that some kind of democratic mandate was needed to confirm the deal available (or not) he could have announced that weeks, if not months ago.

Apart from the fact that the austerity package that has been taken to a referendum was drawn up just 2 days ago...you may have a point.

So far, Greece has been putting their proposals forward, the proposals they Greek government was elected on. They have all been denied and a new austerity package offered.

They couldn't possibly have helf a referendum on a package they did not know the detail of.

My issue with what you write (and as I stated, I respect your opinion) is that you keep making out only Greece have gone into negotiations expecting movement. It's obvious for all who have watched any of the news that the EU has also been doing the same, but ou only focus on what Greece have done.

Unless you can look at the whole scenario, and recognise that the EU themselves have changed tact on several occasions, sometimes multiple times a day, we'll simply have to agree to disagree on this.

You appear to believe that further bailouts, further debt arrangements and increased debt will fix a collosal debt problem. We've tried that for 3 years, and, apart from bigger debt figures, were no furher forward. What's even bigger debt amounts going to achieve? Other than a respite for another couple of months?

You blame the greeks constantly for this issue, but appear to want to give further loans to people who you know don't have a chance of repaying. At what point does the creditor get the blame for throwing money into a raging bonfire and being surprised it's just gone up in smoke? Or do we continually blame the bonfire and try to put the flames out by throwing more notes on it?