Advice re lack of listed building consent and other issues!

jen999_2

Hi experts...

Sorry if this is long winded but I could really use some advice..so please bear with me!


I am trying to buy my first house, on my own and i'm stuck.
Its a repossession in a conservation area and is grade 2 listed! (Why did I ever think it would be simple?!)

Basically, all was going well, mortgage sorted etc, until the valuation came back and although they were satisfied with the value, they made mention to the loft conversion and suggested the solicitor should enquire about planning permission/building regs etc.

Well, there is none! At all. So as far as I can see it breaches listed building consent and building regs.

Initially my solicitor stated that no indemnity insurance would cover such serious breaches. (something to do with it being a criminal offence) and stated the only option would be to contact the sellers and ask permission to approach the Local Authority formally to see whether they would inspect the property and whether they would issue retrospective consent and /or how to go about putting the issues right.

Well I was all for that, and was hoping to get some money knocked off the accepted price, in order for me to complete all the necessary work and deal with the conservation office/planning office etc. That was where it stood before christmas.

Then in the new year the vendor's (GE Money Home Finance Ltd) solicitor came up with an indemnity insurance police with a company called Countrywide legal indemnities. However there was a four point list that needed to be respected and I had to send this to the surveyor/valuer for them to comment. Oh and they also said I could not approach the Local Authority to advise them of the situation.

They have come back to Natwest (my lender) and stated they are not satisfied that the insurance policy covers the issues with the extension and breaches of listed building consent so have recommended to natwest not to proceed.

So i'm stuck.. I see a few options and was hoping for some advice?

1. Pull out and lose around £1k on solicitor / survey fees

2. Try and find another lender who is perhaps more lenient/ likely to accept the indemnity policy? - where would I start? Are all lenders likely to be of a similar opinion to natwest? Should I get advice from an independent surveyor rather than a valuer linked to the lender?

3. Force the vendors hand by informing the L.A / Conservation office about the breaches - making the vendors do something about it. But then there is no guarantee they will sell the property to me afterwards?
What I discussed with the solicitor before xmas was that if they gave me permission to speak to the local authority, then I would sort out all the issues / get retrospective planning permission and even pay for the works to be done (lot of family in building trade), on the proviso that I get some money off the asking price for this to be done.. and we exchange contracts on a conditional basis prior to the work being done and complete once it is all above board/planning satisfied. - I would be willing to do this - its just getting the vendor to agree.

phew..

So, what does everyone think?
It sounds really complicated now i've wrote it all down!
The problem is, I don't want to lose all the money ive worked so hard to save for, and whats more, I really want this house. There is nothing similar on the market in an area I like, at a decent price like this.

So, any one with any advice / anyone with experience of breach of listed building and whether you were able to get indemnity insurance to cover it, I would love to hear from you!

Thanks for reading

FireWyrm

Drop it and walk away. I knw it sounds harsh, but you just don't mess with the listing agency, they can make your life miserable. Even if you continued with this and by some act of God managed to get an indemnity policy, you've then got the hastle and potentially large cost of trying to sort the planning permission/regs retrospectively when you are not even completely sure what the vandals have done in the first place. No, you don't need this headache and there has to be a really really (did I say really?) compelling reason to continued with this sale.

Itismehonest

Absolutely, agree.

"Inevitably, not everyone complies. And, as tempting as it might be to overlook the work done on a house you're desperate to buy, you risk incurring the cost of sorting out work that didn't have the appropriate listed-building consent, points out solicitor Suzanne Bowman from Adams and Remers.
‘The listing can include anything within the curtilage of the house, so you might be instructed by the local authority to undo unlawful work on a converted outbuilding that provides extra rooms, or to remove a swimming pool. You'll lose the value of this extra space or leisure facility and the price should also take into account the need to remove these recent additions,' she explains. Such a purchase might also create mortgage difficulties, Mrs Bowman continues. ‘Most lenders want to know if building work on a listed property has the right consent.'
There is, of course, the option to push the onus onto the seller to rectify the problems, but this could hold up the purchase. In the end, you don't want to be saddled with a country house you can't easily sell on. Richard Gayner from Savills' country department adds that many people confuse planning consent with listed-building consent. ‘If no one finds out the work was done without planning permission, the problem can disappear with the passage of time. However, there is no such thing as a time limit on listed-building consent and it's a criminal act to alter a listed building without the correct permission.'"

From an old article but still relevant I think

The very fact they want you to not approach the authorities is because they know it is a criminal offence to make the alterations.
There's a good reason why "There is nothing similar on the market in an area I like, at a decent price like this."

DVardysShadow

jen999 wrote: »

... So i'm stuck.. I see a few options and was hoping for some advice?

1. Pull out and lose around £1k on solicitor / survey fees

2. ....

3. .....

Why is it that when FTB's [usually] reach some sort of stalemate or decision point on buying a property, there is always "and lose £1k on solicitor/survey fees" tagged on to the option of pulling out???

The money has been spent on getting to the point where you can see that you seriously need to consider pulling out. As such it is money well spent, because if you had not reached this point, the losses would have been substantial if you had to put everything back the way it was.

As the others are indicating, an indemnity policy does not offer a way forward, because at some point you would have to approach the listing authority to do something at which point the works would be discovered and the insurance policy would be invalidated.

jen999_2

Thanks for both responses, and for the link to that article - very interesting.

My solicitor has said "The seller will not allow you to contact the Local Authority at all, as it then puts the Authority on notice of the breach and would prevent any other buyer obtaining indemnity insurance. Furthermore, it would immediately render the seller responsible for returning the property to its original condition, which could cost the seller several thousand pounds"

I take it theres nothing they can do to me if I go ahead and tell them anyway??

I know the sensible thing is to walk away - but the thought of losing that much money just annoys me so much!

jen999_2

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Why is it that when FTB's [usually] reach some sort of stalemate or decision point on buying a property, there is always "and lose £1k on solicitor/survey fees" tagged on to the option of pulling out???

The money has been spent on getting to the point where you can see that you seriously need to consider pulling out. As such it is money well spent, because if you had not reached this point, the losses would have been substantial if you had to put everything back the way it was.

As the others are indicating, an indemnity policy does not offer a way forward, because at some point you would have to approach the listing authority to do something at which point the works would be discovered and the insurance policy would be invalidated.

Can you just explain why the policy would be invalidated? Thanks. I do recognise that it could be 'money well spent' its just £1000 is a hell of a lot of money to me, to have nothing to show for.

Itismehonest

I'm not sure whether you'd see your money even if you report them.
It's for work which has been done to date.

May I ask if you have any experience of living in a listed building?

DVardysShadow

jen999 wrote: »

.... I take it theres nothing they can do to me if I go ahead and tell them anyway??

You need legal advice if you are contemplating that! The seller could argue that the negotiations were confidential and sue you for costs arising from breach of confidentiality.That is a possibility which has crossed my mind. I sort of doubt it would stand if it went to court, but this looks like one of those issues where might is right and any ordinary solicitor you could find would refuse to defend you - mainly because your house deposit might be enough to settle a claim, but not leave anything to pay your fees and costs and they would prefer not to gamble.

And telling the council would not be acting in good faith, which might scupper you as a buyer they would deal with.

So about all you can do is face up to the possibility you may have to put this right at your own expense and drop your offer accordingly. This in turn may leave you in a position where you lack the finance to put the job right ...

System

Indemnity insurance works on the premise that the party that is 'wronged' is not aware/made aware of the 'wrongdoing' intentionally. Once the listing agency are aware that there is a breach of the regulations then the breach can no longer be indemnified

FireWyrm

jen999 wrote: »

Thanks for both responses, and for the link to that article - very interesting.

My solicitor has said "The seller will not allow you to contact the Local Authority at all, as it then puts the Authority on notice of the breach and would prevent any other buyer obtaining indemnity insurance. Furthermore, it would immediately render the seller responsible for returning the property to its original condition, which could cost the seller several thousand pounds"

I take it theres nothing they can do to me if I go ahead and tell them anyway??

I know the sensible thing is to walk away - but the thought of losing that much money just annoys me so much!

There you go, even your solicitor is telling you to drop it and walk away. As for losing the money, I know it's infuriating, but honestly, you've spent the money to get this far and discover what everyone was paid to discover...a serious breach of planning regs which renders the house unsalable in it's present condition. Even if you managed to get all this sorted and you manage to come out of it no worse off than going in...what about when you try to sell again? Your buyer is just as likely to come to the same conclusions and run a mile. Messing with a listed building is just not done, it's stupid in the extreme considering that the vendor already knew the regs or they wouldn't have forbidden you from contacting the relevant agencies to sort this mess, and, more to the point, why should YOU be spending the money cleaning up their mess?

jen999_2

Itismehonest wrote: »

I'm not sure whether you'd see your money even if you report them.
It's for work which has been done to date.

May I ask if you have any experience of living in a listed building?

No, I don't have experience of living in a listed building. I do have a number of colleagues who live in this village and have researched A LOT about what can/cannot be changed.

Thanks, Jen