AVIVA International With-Profit Bond

dunstonh

one person on this thread defending these investments is an .......IFA

Selective reading from you again. I havent defended them. I have said, as I always have, that there are some good ones out there. To assume they are all bad is silly.

Pru have consistently turned in good returns on their WP fund. Aviva had a cracking one around 5 years ago that had MVR free exit points after 5 or 10 years and a guaranteed minimum return of RPI. What about all those pensions with guaranteed annuity rates 50-100% higher than the open market rates? Or even those with guaranteed minimum maturity values?

Do you want all those people with highly valuable plans to surrender and lose that money? That is what you are suggesting after all.

There are good ones, indifferent ones and bad ones. Some people are balanced enough in their views to see which is which. Others have such big chips on their shoulders, they cannot see the good or the bad.

darkpool

eranou wrote: »

I agree with dunstonh, there are WP bonds out there that have underperformed however there are also ones which have been gems.

I work for friends life (previously axa sunlife) and have seen WP bonds that have more than doubled in value since inception I have also seen ones making only about £500 on a £10,000 investment investment over 10 years you can't simply tar the whole investment type with one brush.

You seem to have a grudge against IFAs in generall, what qualifications do you feel they should gain before being authorised to give advice?

yeah i accept that some WPs will be gems, however how come no one here is posting on this thread talking about positive experiences of WPs? Is it because there are very few of these "gem" WPs?

"Double in value since inception" you say that like it's an impressive return, doubling money over 20 years isn't anything to get excited about.

I think the qualification they need is an understanding that active management is not worth the fees.

Thanks for posting by the way, it's good to know someone that works for a company managing WPs thinks they are good as well.

Any investors with WPs happy with their returns?

My experience of WPs is that I never got the money I invested back of course dunstonh will say "learn more about investments". well i did, and i came to the conclusion that active management was for people that believe a smooth salesman.

darkpool

dunstonh wrote: »

There are good ones, indifferent ones and bad ones. Some people are balanced enough in their views to see which is which. Others have such big chips on their shoulders, they cannot see the good or the bad.

so how about all those "orphan assets"? as i understand it over the decades policies mature and the insurance company keeps some of the money from each investor. Then the insurance company just keeps this money? Is that ethical? Why should I invest in a product with such an opaque structure? Should these orphan assets not be used to get rid of MVRs?

The whole selling point of WP is that it offered guaranteed bonuses each year. But then the insurers just decide to apply a MVR. So the bonuses aren't really guaranteed? They could give a million pound "guaranteed bonus" to every investor, then just apply a MVR when the investor wants his money back.

At least when you hold shares directly you know roughly how much you can sell them for. A WP policys "value" really has no relevance to what it is actually worth.

2010

Out of the hundreds of financial products available you`re bound to get the odd one or two that do well.
The problem is that these IFA can only tell you about them after they do well.
The chances of an IFA picking one for you is remote.
They are mainly commission driven and sell what`s good for them rather than what`s good for the "investor" (mug).

As I said in a previous post just Google "WP bonds are rubbish" and you`ll find no end of unhappy people.

Having said that, people are their own worse enemies by going to these people in the first place.
Fee based or commission based the "investor" ends up paying for what`s mainly bad advice which will cost them dearly in the long term.
If people really want to risk their hard earned on these financial products they should do their own research, pick their own products and then go to an execution only broker, where they will at least get some of the commission rebated back to them.

Most people with a lump sum to invest would do just as well putting it in a 5 year fixed rate savings account rather than listening to and paying the chancers (IFA) of this world.

dunstonh

yeah i accept that some WPs will be gems, however how come no one here is posting on this thread talking about positive experiences of WPs? Is it because there are very few of these "gem" WPs?

The nature of the internet is that people generally post negatives rather than positives. However, there has been a post just this morning about someone with a benefit on a WP plan.

My experience of WPs is that I never got the money I invested back of course dunstonh will say "learn more about investments". well i did, and i came to the conclusion that active management was for people that believe a smooth salesman.

Most WP plans are capital guaranteed. So, to lose money would suggest you withdrew/surrendered early.

The problem is that these IFA can only tell you about them after they do well.

Not the case. A plan with a 12% GAR and 1% a year bonus is going to be very hard to beat with any alternative. You can see that well in advance. Or a plan with a bonus rate which fluctuates but is currently 3.5% but has a guaranteed minimum increase of RPI is pretty easy to decide on. Or a fund with a GMP where the bonus rate is irrelevant as it is never going to meet the GMP

Most people with a lump sum to invest would do just as well putting it in a 5 year fixed rate savings account rather than listening to and paying the chancers (IFA) of this world.

Sorry but that has just told us volumes about your ability to understand the issues. Ignoring the shortfall/inflation risk being taken, most WP investments are still beating cash deposits.

I will say again that is it disappointing that any some on this thread want to avoid a balanced discussion. That helps no-one.

darkpool

dunstonh wrote: »

Not the case. A plan with a 12% GAR and 1% a year bonus is going to be very hard to beat with any alternative. You can see that well in advance. Or a plan with a bonus rate which fluctuates but is currently 3.5% but has a guaranteed minimum increase of RPI is pretty easy to decide on. Or a fund with a GMP where the bonus rate is irrelevant as it is never going to meet the GMP

I will say again that is it disappointing that any some on this thread want to avoid a balanced discussion. That helps no-one.

yeah my dad had a pension with a GAR of 12%, but it was with Equitable Life. Equitable Life just shrugged there shoulders and said "sorry guv, we cant afford the GAR, so tough t1tty". So a GAR isn't really guaranteed is it?

It seems to be you that has a fixation that WPs are a good investment, I think most people here with no bias and experience of WPs thinks they are a bad investment.

2010

I`m afraid that when you present Dunstonh with your own particular experience and facts he tries to belittle you by saying that you don`t understand the issues.
The man`s totally blinkered and of course has a vested interest to be concerned about.

I know through experience that if I had invested my lump sum into a 5 year fixed rate savings account and then done the same again for another 5 years I would have been better off than investing in the AVIVA (eventually) WP Portfolio Bond, which I cashed in on the 10 year anniversary when a MVR didn`t apply.
Just remember some of the MVR topped 20%.

The situation would have been even worse but for the fact the Aviva distributed the "orphan assets" at the time and luckily my policy came under this, otherwise it would have been even more dire.
I`m not saying I lost money but that I could have done better with an ordinary savings account and not lined someone else`s pocket with management charges plus the IFA annual clawback for doing nothing.

dunstonh

yeah my dad had a pension with a GAR of 12%, but it was with Equitable Life. Equitable Life just shrugged there shoulders and said "sorry guv, we cant afford the GAR, so tough t1tty". So a GAR isn't really guaranteed is it?

it is guaranteed as long as the provider is solvent to pay it. The Eq Life issue, whilst not fun for Eq life policy holders with GARs, did put in place requirements that meant that a repeat was not seen with other providers.

It seems to be you that has a fixation that WPs are a good investment, I think most people here with no bias and experience of WPs thinks they are a bad investment.

See what I mean about lack of balance. You are clearly biased and lack the ability to read correctly if that is the opinion you have taken. Once you take your chip off your shoulder and stop being so biased and fixated, you will realise that I have indicated nothing of the sort..

The man`s totally blinkered and of course has a vested interest to be concerned about.

What vested interest is this? You keep saying it but you dont back it up with evidence.

I know through experience that if I had invested my lump sum into a 5 year fixed rate savings account and then done the same again for another 5 years I would have been better off than investing in the AVIVA (eventually) WP Portfolio Bond, which I cashed in on the 10 year anniversary when a MVR didn`t apply. Just remember some of the MVR topped 20%.

You are right in your first sentance. You dont understand the issues. The fund is an investment fund. It is not a savings account. Investments may provide more or less than savings. People who invested in the Aviva WP fund 5 years ago with the MVR free exit points and minimum RPI linking would have done better than a savings account. That is what happens with investments. Sometimes you get more, sometimes less.

2010

dunstonh wrote: »

Sorry but that has just told us volumes about your ability to understand the issues. Ignoring the shortfall/inflation risk being taken, most WP investments are still beating cash deposits.

This is typical of his blinkered approach.
In an earlier post I linked an article about people losing 45% of their investment and he still insists that WP are beating cash deposits.

dunstonh

In an earlier post I linked an article about people losing 45% of their investment and he still insists that WP are beating cash deposits.

I said most. Not all. Again, typical of your blinkered approach. You want it to be black and white. I say it isnt and that its more shades of grey and you accuse me of being biased and blinkered. Crazy. You are the one that cannot understand that some of these plans are good and worth keeping or that some of them are average or that some of them are dire.

If you think that me saying that each one should be viewed on its own merits and a decision made individually makes me biased or blinkered then I accept that accusation willingly. I would rather take a balanced an individual view than be stupid and take decisions on the basis of what someone else may have.