Magistrates court hearing for warrant to entry for electricity debt

Zorz_2

Some quick background information, to bring you up to speed to the situation:

I rent a room in a shared accomodation property. My AST is about to end in ~7 weeks. There are 2 other tenants, an older woman (who has been living in the flat for a number of years) and a foreign student who moved in this autumn, a couple months after me. The flat is managed by a LA and I have no dealings with the landlord. The rent includes all utility bills (it is clearly mentioned in the rental agreement) apart from TV license (which is irrelevant in my case as I don't own a TV).

So far, the managing agent has been very professional. My deposit is held in an insured scheme, I received the necessary paperwork in time, just recently the gas certificate was renewed and a copy was sent to us and the 2 times I called to report problems with the property (broken fridge when I moved in, blocked/leaking gutter in the roof), he has dealt with them quickly. To be honest, the flat isn't in great condition, but I get the feeling it's just the owner that can't be bothered to invest money in the property.

So, here is the subject:

Occasionally, we receive mail addressed to the landlord, of which I report to the LA to pick them in their next visit or forward to them. Whatever mail is addressed to “The Occupier”, I bring it home and leave in a communal area. It's mostly either spam, or from TV Licensing. Today, apart from my bank statement, there were 2 envelopes from the same sender. No markings outside, but the same size, same postmark and same slight misspelling of the address. One addressed to the landlord, the other to “The Occupier”.

I opened the latter, and oh my! :eek:

It's from a company acting on behalf of the electricity supplier, regarding an outstanding debt of over £2600! It says in a big, threatening font size “WARRANT OF ENTRY TO ENTER YOUR HOME”. This seems to be a little sneaky, intentionally misleading, since further reading reveals that it is actually a notification that they have applied to the local Magistrates Court for a Warrant to Entry. Still, it's quite serious. It also states that we have the right to attent the hearing.

Their intention is to replace the meter with a prepayment one, or “if this isn't safe and practical, to disconnect your electricity supply.” The court hearing is set for near the end of this month. I immediately emailed a copy to the LA's office and phoned them, where I was told they will be taking care of this, after finding out what exactly this is for, since the amount was surprisingly large.

Now, as I mentioned before, the LA so far has behaved in a professional manner, but £2600 in electricity balance, seems to me that someone has stopped paying the bills a long time ago! Mind you, that for the whole summer, there was only one tenant living in the flat (the older woman), and none of us has converted the place into a cupcake factory, or a pot greenhouse! How long it takes to rake this kind of amount anyway? Unless of course, everything is a massive c*ck-up.

I also showed the letter to the other flatmate and left it in the hallway for the lady (and I'm using this term very gratuitously, her behaviour is nothing but trouble!) to see, as it affects all of us. This is where it gets even more interesting. In the afternoon, she returns at home, sees the letter and immediately knocks at my door. What followed, is worthy of the best skit by Marx brothers:

-When did this arrive?
-Today.
-And was it open like that?
-No, it came in an envelope.
-Why did you opened it? You have no right to open mail for others. I can do it because I have an agreement with the landlord, to send him all the mail that come for him but you shouldn't.

At this point I pointed out that the letter was to “The Occupier”, not to the landlord's name but she didn't let mere semantics get in the way, saying “Yeah, that means the landlord, the person who owns the house”. Now, I'm not a native English speaker (while she is), but I'm pretty sure that occupier means the person who resides at a property, hence us. I tried to explain this, but only briefly. I have a natural aversion to stupid arguments you see. What bothers me though, is that she seemed to be bothered only by the fact that I opened the letter (which I have every right to do) and not by the situation itself! :shocked:


My question is, where do we stand as tenants in this? The debt is clearly not our responsibility. The situation though clearly affects us. The meter is inside the building entrance, not inside the flat so they only need access to the main door, not the flat itself. If they install a prepaid meter, I don't know how the arrangement will work. And if they cut off the electricity entirely, we will be left effectively homeless. No power means no lighting, no heating, no fridge/freezer, no cooking, no way to work on my computer, etc.

I will ask the LA to keep me informed about this, but somehow I doubt they will pay all that money in less than 3 weeks if they haven't done by now. Should I need to start getting worried? Contact Shelter or CAB etc? Are there provisions (by the Council perhaps) to prevent tenants being scr**d by fault of others?

BitterAndTwisted

Get onto the agent and have them tell you when the landlord intends to settle this bill. The slight difficulty for you at the moment is that the agent may not be holding any funds (the rent from you which they have collected and now passed back to the landlord) in order to pay the utility company themselves.

Utility companies are very assertive at getting their accounts settled so your landlord really should be sitting up and taking notice. CCJs are very nasty things to have.

If the landlord does not settle this account you could decide to deduct an appropriate amount from you rent to cover the charges should they install a pre-pay meter. I suggest that you take proper qualified advice about how to do this rather from some anonymous idiot on the internet. Like Shelter, who have guidance about all sorts of things like this on their site, or CAB.

This is important: from now on ensure that you open EVERY SINGLE piece of correspondence addressed to "The Occupier" now that strange lady knows that you've opened this one. She may try to get to the post before you from now on and there could be other more serious things on their way to you.

NeverAgain_2

Nothing to stop you attending the hearing - it's held in public - but it might not take you much further forward.

Routinely, warrants of entry are dealt with in a batch because each one only takes seconds.

A man from the power company turns up with six or eight of them, swears an oath, reads out the addresses and it's all done in a minute or two.

The magistrates usually know the power company man because he's there every week, so they will often do them first thing to save him hanging about.

I've never seen one opposed because if the situation is sorted, the application is withdrawn before the hearing.

If you go and your address is on the list, you could approach the power company man afterwards and ask him if he knows any more about it.

He may assist you in some way, but may not know anything about individual cases.

Turn up at the court just before 10am and ask the office or one of the ushers - the only people wearing a gown - which court the warrants are going to be held in.

The usher may also be able to point out the power company man to you.

prowla

You are an occupier of the property and the letter was addressed to the occupier.
Whatever else, that's the wording.

As far as the unpaid bill goes - if your payments include an element for the electricity that is not being paid on, then the LA is stealing your money.

DVardysShadow

Zorz wrote: »

At this point I pointed out that the letter was to “The Occupier”, not to the landlord's name but she didn't let mere semantics get in the way, saying “Yeah, that means the landlord, the person who owns the house”. Now, I'm not a native English speaker (while she is), but I'm pretty sure that occupier means the person who resides at a property, hence us. I tried to explain this, but only briefly. I have a natural aversion to stupid arguments you see. What bothers me though, is that she seemed to be bothered only by the fact that I opened the letter (which I have every right to do) and not by the situation itself! :shocked:

Your English is very noticeably as good as that of any native and better than many. Your understanding of the term 'Occupier' is entirely correct. A letter such as this is written for the attention of people living at the premises in order to address them specifically rather than any non-resident owner. Obviously, the supplier has drawn a blank trying to deal with the owner directly.

If there is ever any further correspondence for 'the Occupier', keep it and only pass on a photocopy. As B&T says, this may be the start of more to come, it looks like your Landlady is in trouble financially.. Even with tenants who use what they like because the Landlady is paying, it takes some time to rack up £2600 of arrears.

agrinnall

You mention that your AST is up in 7 weeks time, does that mean you are thinking of moving elsewhere at that time? If so it might be easier for you to keep your head down and not worry too much about it (other than witholding an amount for electricity from the rent if the meter is changed before you go). Because nothing is in your name any CCJ can only impact on the LL, not you, and if the LL is prepared to get a CCJ then I would be worried that essential work required in the future may not be done. And moving would get you away from your slightly mad flatmate.

clutton_2

write to the LL immediately asking when he is going to pay the bill. If he does not reply and you are then faced with pre pay ment meters, negotiate with the letting agents in writing as to how much your rent will be reduced by since you will be paying your own bill. the previoius debt presumably is in the name of the LL so is not yours to pay

G_M

clutton wrote: »

write to the LL immediately asking when he is going to pay the bill. If he does not reply and you are then faced with pre pay ment meters, negotiate with the letting agents in writing as to how much your rent will be reduced by since you will be paying your own bill. the previoius debt presumably is in the name of the LL so is not yours to pay

Look on your tenancy agreement. There should be an address 'for the serving of Notices' for the landlord. Write there, and send a copy to the agent.

Ulfar

clutton wrote: »

write to the LL immediately asking when he is going to pay the bill. If he does not reply and you are then faced with pre pay ment meters, negotiate with the letting agents in writing as to how much your rent will be reduced by since you will be paying your own bill. the previoius debt presumably is in the name of the LL so is not yours to pay

There is only one problem with this, prepayment meters can be set up by the electricity company so that they charge more to recover the debt.

I had this on a flat I bought where the meter was charging a higher rate to recover debt, I contacted the electricity company too change the meter to a normal one and they advised me of this and wanted the previous owners new address.

Yorkie1

Ulfar wrote: »

There is only one problem with this, prepayment meters can be set up by the electricity company so that they charge more to recover the debt.

I had this on a flat I bought where the meter was charging a higher rate to recover debt, I contacted the electricity company too change the meter to a normal one and they advised me of this and wanted the previous owners new address.

This is a real potential problem. First plan should be to try to ensure that your payments did not have any repayments for the LL's previous debt deducted as the debt is not yours. If they won't do that, you'd need to establish how much (%) of any payment went towards the old debt as opposed to your usage, and ensure that that is taken into account when discussing a reduction in rent.

Zorz_2

Thanks everyone for your responses.

As for the debt, I am well aware that it's not my/our responsibility. I tried to explain that to Tenant C (the student) so that he won't be unnecessarily worried. The problem is that the indirect consequences of this will affect us. And I'm still surprised that nobody else seems really concerned about this! From crazy lady (now that Badger_Lady's saga is about to end, I can keep you more than amused with her antics!) to the seemingly casual attitude of the managing agent (well of course, it's not his power about to be cut off!).

Tomorrow I will forward the 2 letters to the agent, as he asked me, and will request to be informed about the situation. Also I will ring Shelter and ask for more specific information. But I don't know exactly which strategy I need to follow.

As I see it at the moment, there are 3 potential causes:

1. It's just a mistake
2. a. The Letting Agent is embezzling, taking the rent from us but pocketing the money for the bills instead of paying them.
   b. A previous LA embezzled the money, and the current one only just caught up with the fact.
3. The LL takes the money but keeps the bills unpaid.

Scenario 1 is a possibility, but since I have no access to the account details, I can't verify this. Also, the LA was informed of any letters arriving for the LL. Scenario 2, if the debt is real then someone didn't pay the bills. And even with all the possible surcharges, this must be going on for quite a while. I put also 2b, because I got the impression from previous discussions with the LA that he may have started managing the property relatively recently. Scenario 3 seems unlikely to me, this is a managed property, I pay the rent to the LA, deal with them and haven't ever communicated with the LL. So in theory, he shouldn't be the one that deals with the bills in the first place.

There is definitely foul play here, but who did it? This is important, because I need to know who should I turn against to.

About the correspondence, yes I will definitely open everything (and keep copies) addressed to "The Occupier" from now on, even the TV Licensing stuff. Tenant C seems almost oblivious to the existence of Royal Mail! Tenant A returns from work in the afternoons. My working schedule (self-employed) means that I spend more hours at home and in most cases I have the opportunity to get the mail just after it gets delivered.

I don't find a good idea to unilaterally deduct an amount from the rent to cover the electricity top-ups. First because, all the guides that I have read so far, always advise that in any disputes to keep paying the rent promptly and entirely and then ask for compensation etc. That way, you keep all your responsibilities and don't give leverage to the other side. Plus, I do not know how much will be the cost.

I downloaded some information from npower (they are our supplier) about prepaid meters and I understand their stance. In fact, their behavior is the only one that makes sense so far. Having that much outstanding debt, they try to stop the client from getting even more into debt, and a prepaid meter provides the facility to gradually repay it, via weekly/montly fixed charges (that need to be topped up) and/or higher tarrifs per kWh.

The problem here is two-fold. Firstly, if we end up paying the electricity ourselves, we need to ask npower to charge us at the going rate and turn against the landlord seperately for the debt. But we are not the customer! Secondly, there are potential problems with other tenants possibly delaying/refusing to pay, losing or “losing” the token key etc. As far as I can tell, the only acceptable way for this to happen is if the LA gets the token and charges the meter as needed, without change to the rent amount. Otherwise, they will be in breach of contract, I reckon!

As for attending the court hearing, indeed it may not be of much help. If the warrant is awarded, the company will contact us afterwards (to arrange the replacement). Is it possible to call the court and ask for the verdict? Also, the representative of the company probably won't be helpful either. Even if he/she knows about the particular case, I guess they will refuse to tell me anything since I'm not the registered client.

About the letter addressed to the occupier, I remind you that that there is another one, addressed to the LL. Obviously I won't open it but I bet it says pretty much the same. So, the one to "The Occupier" is probably part of their statutory obligations to notify the actual people residing in the property (if different than the LL). However, the wording of the letter is interesting, perhaps implying that it is our unpaid balance. I quote:

Dear Occupier,

Your energy supplier, npower, has already written to you several times about your unpaid Electricity bill. As stated in previous letters we've sent you, we're acting on behalf of npower to collect your outstanding balance of {amount}. As you haven't contacted us about this, we're now going to apply to the Magistrates Court for a Warrant of Entry to enter {our address}
(…)
If you have any obstacles blocking access to the meter then you must remove these before the Warrant visit date. If not then our Warrant Officers will be left with no alternative than to remove the obstacle and any damage caused (including costs) will be the responsibility of the customer.
If you contact us and make arrangements to pay the full amount owing before the court date shown above we won't need to apply for a warrant. To stop us from taking further actio please call us immediately on {number}.

As you can see, the letter is addressed to the occupiers but almost entirely refers to “your supplier”, “we wrote you”, “your unpaid bill”, “your outstanding balance”, “you contact us and pay” and only once mentions “the customer”. Once again, I know that this is not my debt and cannot possibly be held liable for it, but all those “you” should be written to the LL's letter, not ours.

Regarding the financial state of the Landlord (not Landlady), indeed £2600 of debt doesn't look too promising. Also, I have previously found that the flat was posted last year on the market for sale. There are no sings posted outside though, and (to my knowledge) no viewings, but nevertheless that might explain that the owner doesn't want to invest in the property. But they don't seem desperate to sell either.

Agrinnall asked a very interesting question, to which I have no answer. Before this, I intented to stay but not sign another 6 month extension, instead let it revert automatically to a periodic agreement. I haven't contacted the LA to ask about the LL's position yet, I planned to, but this came up. Obviously, the outcome of this issue will play a major role in my decision. So, the timeline is very critical. The court hearing is on the 26th. If the warrant get awarded, the company will execute it on 2/2. My rent is due on the 25th, I have a standing order to pay it a few days earlier, to account for any delays because of bank holidays etc. (am I the ideal tenant, or what? ). The AST ends on the 24/2.