Disciplinary Hearing Outcome

barspeed

Hi, I have been previously vague here before but I am now in a position to give more detail now they have told me!

Just recently I had the hearing.

Hearing begins, I am then told shortly afterwards the particulars of the allegations x2 against me. The Terms of Reference are I lied about an incident and I did not provide full facts to a Director. These breaches are against the Code of Conduct, Security Policy and therefore against the Trust and Values of the company Charter, which means I also breached my Contract.

The Investigators report is documented and verbally submitted, he refers to an incident which took place which the Terms of Reference do not refer to, that I spoke to a member of staff in a rude manner in a separate incident to those in the ToR's.

The Hearing Chair then stated that the ToR which says I did not provide full facts to a Director was a charge which she devised on evidence she had, and therefore it was not the Director making the allegation, but it was her. That means the Area Manager, preliminary investigator, Investigation Commisioner and the Chair of the Hearing is the same person. It transpired that this charge had been dropped due me providing evidence at the Investigation stage.

The conclusion made by the Investigator was there is sufficient evidence to prove that I lied about the incident and that there is evidence that I was rude to a member of staff at a separate incident.

The hearing was adjourned pending a decision.
Last night I got a call informing me that the Panel had decided against me and I would be served a Final Written Warning for 3 years. Letter in the post giving more detail.

My concern is that:-
1) I should have been provided the specific particulars of the allegations against me well in advance of the hearing, not at the start.

2) Should the Chair of the Hearing been allowed as Chair if she was the person who devised one of the allegations?

3) Should an Investigating Officer submit a new allegation, outside of the ToR's remit during this hearing?

4) If I appeal my sanction, could an Appeal Panel increase the sanction to that of dismissal? (I have researched this and called ACAS and they say no, but in the Company handbook it says an Appeal Panel could increase the penalty?)

Hope for some guidance, thanks

SarEl

They cannot increase the sanction no. But the rest of your questions are, I am afraid, superfluous. What they should or should not have done (which are questions we can only speculate on anyway since we have no details of why this happened the way it did) doesn't matter - your only route of appeal is to the company, not to a tribunal. So the company can do whatever they want. Including finding a minor charge to dismiss you on now - which it sounds like they are playing for. If you are then dismissed for poor timekeeping or whatever, the tribunal will only look at the facts of the dismissal - not how you ended up on a final warning. Your days appear to be numbered - I would seriously job hunt in your shoes.

dandelionclock30

I wouldnt want to be stuck on a final written warning for 3 years!.Basically if your late once then they can sack you.
You will need nerves of steel to get through that.Like has been said look for another job now like now this minute.
They will have you and are waiting.......

barspeed

Thanks for your comments, at the end of last year I made a few speculative job applications and on monday was offered a job pending references. One of the references will be to a close colleague and the other to my current line manager so fingures crossed there.

On a linked matter, the job I will hopefully start at the begining of Feb will be doing the same sort of job for a similiar company, they are industry linked. Would the FWW be carried across or does it terminate with the ending of my contract and the starting of a new one?

I will be making an appeal with several concerns, even though they are perhaps superfluous they were breaches of thier own policy which they applied to me, some of which were possible breaches of the DDA/ EA but also possibly of the ERA?

Watch this space?

Acc72

Good luck with your new job application.

When you start a new job, you start with a "clean slate" and do not carry forward any warnings etc. (FWW = 3 years ?? !! ............).

My (non legal) advice would be to be positive - i.e. look for a new job and start afresh, and not get bogged down with negativity in your curremt job (as it looks as though you will be moving on soon anyway - one way or another .....).

You might feel that your employer has "got away" with something, but in my opinion unless you are looking for financial compensation and have a really good case just leave it behind and move on.

barspeed

Latest news

I got a phone call yesterday, the offer of a job has been retracted on the basis of the reference provided by my 'current' line manager. I was informed that the returned form stated full details of the disciplinary and sanction I had undergone at the start of January and also, in reply to the Question 'would you employ this man?', my Manager said no.

I have done some cursory research, am I right in saying that a current manager saying that they would not employ me is like an oxymoron and could be in breach of my contract in regards to an implied trust and confidence term?

Googlewhacker

Basically the manager is saying you are not good enough but not that bad to be able to sack...

I'm not sure you have anything you can go with because its a true fact, not a lie etc.

I could be wrong though and sure SarEL or Lazy Daisy may say different...

Sambucus_Nigra

Your manager is clearly an idiot - if you really don't want someone in your team you don't give them a bad reference; otherwise they may never leave.

And yes, it's an oxymoron as clearly he IS employing you.

System

barspeed wrote: »

in reply to the Question 'would you employ this man?', my Manager said no.

I always take that question in the context of 'If he was applying for a job with you now, would you employ him', which, I believe is the intended meaning.

In that context it is not an oxymoron

SarEl

barspeed wrote: »

Latest news

I got a phone call yesterday, the offer of a job has been retracted on the basis of the reference provided by my 'current' line manager. I was informed that the returned form stated full details of the disciplinary and sanction I had undergone at the start of January and also, in reply to the Question 'would you employ this man?', my Manager said no.

I have done some cursory research, am I right in saying that a current manager saying that they would not employ me is like an oxymoron and could be in breach of my contract in regards to an implied trust and confidence term?

No. How does telling the truth breach trust and confidence? If the reference is truthful there is nothing you can do.

barspeed

Mmm, an interesting one and also down to symantics. The panel decided I was guilty of 'Malicously and vexatiously making a complaint', which at the start of the hearing I asked for a translation into english was established as 'made a false allegation - or falsley accused someone' which resulted in a 3 yr FWW. Last week I sent my appeal document off challenging the legality of the proceedings, my line manager stated she was unaware of my appeal just days ago.

Anyway, I side track - surely when I asked my LM if it were okay to be contacted for a reference she could have refrained from doing so?

My opinion, separate from the disciplinary issue centres on breach of trust and confidence, which boils down to the word confidence. If my LM would not employ me, this brings me to the conclusion that my working relationship, trust and confidence with my LM is irretreivable?

In future job applications, I will not give my LM as a point of contact for a ref. stating that the reason for leaving is a breakdown of the working relationship with my LM due to harsh criticism based not on my performance but of a one off incident over conduct in 14 years, and give alternative names of former LM;s