Disciplinary Hearing Outcome

System

barspeed wrote: »

In future job applications, I will not give my LM as a point of contact for a ref. stating that the reason for leaving is a breakdown of the working relationship with my LM due to harsh criticism based not on my performance but of a one off incident over conduct in 14 years, and give alternative names of former LM;s

And you don't expect the new company to insist on hearing the other side after you make serious & and potentially libellous allegations such as the above?

dandelionclock30

Can you try and sort something out with them so that you can move on without them sabotaging your efforts? I would be trying for some type of negotiated exit at this point.

agrinnall

I would be looking to get any job that won't be too concerned about your previous employment so that you can then look for a job that you want and give the new employer as your reference so that you aren't faced with the same bad reference again.

Uncertain

dandelionclock30 wrote: »

I would be trying for some type of negotiated exit at this point.

I would agree. It may well be worth suggesting that you will go quietly in exchange for a small amount of money and an agreed reference (i.e a compromise agreement).

A legally binding reference is potentially of FAR more value to you long term than a cash settlement.

The employer is unlikely to suggest this for fear that it could open the door to a constructive dismissal claim but you could float the idea as part of the appeal.

SarEl

barspeed wrote: »

Mmm, an interesting one and also down to symantics. The panel decided I was guilty of 'Malicously and vexatiously making a complaint', which at the start of the hearing I asked for a translation into english was established as 'made a false allegation - or falsley accused someone' which resulted in a 3 yr FWW. Last week I sent my appeal document off challenging the legality of the proceedings, my line manager stated she was unaware of my appeal just days ago.

Anyway, I side track - surely when I asked my LM if it were okay to be contacted for a reference she could have refrained from doing so?

My opinion, separate from the disciplinary issue centres on breach of trust and confidence, which boils down to the word confidence. If my LM would not employ me, this brings me to the conclusion that my working relationship, trust and confidence with my LM is irretreivable?

In future job applications, I will not give my LM as a point of contact for a ref. stating that the reason for leaving is a breakdown of the working relationship with my LM due to harsh criticism based not on my performance but of a one off incident over conduct in 14 years, and give alternative names of former LM;s

Since you have an interest in semantics, lets translate that one. You will lie and mislead potential employers to hide your disciplinary record. It was you that was criticising your manager for not lying and misleading, wasn't it? Alleged breach of trust and confidence for not lying, I seem to recall? Interesting moral stance from someone criticising their employers.

There are no "semantics" here. You asked your line manager whether it was ok to put her down as the employers reference, and she said yes. She did not say "...and I am willing to lie about your disciplinary record ". Agreeing to provide a reference is not an agreement to provide an untruthful reference or a good reference.

I agree with others here - instead of sabotaging your own job seeking efforts by making wild allegations against the employer (translatation: "Please ring my employer up and do some digging about me, I'm inviting you to"), or asking for references from managers who, if they still work for the employer are likely to still reveal your disciplinary record if asked (it's called "the truth"), or managers who don't work for the employer any more and therefore are not the current employers reference, talk to HR. And I would suggest that you talk to them nicely, because you aren't going to get anywhere if you go in all "entitled". See if you can negotiate a basic reference - one that doesn't answer any questions about disciplinary records etc., because nobody is going to lie for you. But if they are keen to get rid as you are to leave, they may be willing to go some way towards assisting you in this provided it does not entail them lying to someone.

Negotiating a graceful exit is an art - remember that in a new job your have little employment protection, and if the employer discovers that you have lied to them about your disciplinary record, or have deliberately mislead them, it is a matter of some ease to dismiss you - probably for breach of trust and confidence!

Savvy_Sue

barspeed wrote: »

surely when I asked my LM if it were okay to be contacted for a reference she could have refrained from doing so?

She could have done, yes. And if she had any sense she'd have done as Samb suggests and given an excellent one, while still keeping within the truth. She may have been scuppered by the wording of the request, of course, and had she not been specifically asked about your disciplinary record it might have been an excellent reference.

In the past, when I've had to say 'no' to "would you (re-) employ this person?" I've managed to give a reason - job no longer exists, or think they are better suited to a different line of work, or similar.

barspeed wrote: »

In future job applications, I will not give my LM as a point of contact for a ref. stating that the reason for leaving is a breakdown of the working relationship with my LM due to harsh criticism based not on my performance but of a one off incident over conduct in 14 years, and give alternative names of former LM;s

Truly, how to win friends and influence people!

Seriously, start negotiating with HR. Get agreement over a reference. And get out!

Emmzi

barspeed wrote: »

In future job applications, I will not give my LM as a point of contact for a ref. stating that the reason for leaving is a breakdown of the working relationship with my LM due to harsh criticism based not on my performance but of a one off incident over conduct in 14 years, and give alternative names of former LM;s

That is a red light screaming "difficult person, move along."

dandelionclock30

You definatley cant put that ^, your application will be tossed in the bin!. Like people have said you need a negotiated exit ,an agreed reference and put H.R down as the reference!.

barspeed

I have taken on board what has been said, I have a poor relationship with HR for a number of reasons which is difficult. I made the original complaint to HR about a member of staff in September but they lost the paperwork, the complaint was geniune but I got my facts wrong and this is when management devised the malicious complaint allegation against me when I raised the issue with HR 2 months later. They ripped my complaint apart, added in extra allegations, one which was outside the ambit of the hearings remit and then reached the conclusion that I had been malicious and applied the FWW. I need to get out of the place as the stress of the job and environment has made me ill before i was suspended and the illness i think effected my judgement. I have sent the appeal off, here are the main points:-

• Failure to sufficiently particularise in detail the allegations prior to the hearing
• Allowing submissions by Mr. X relating to a matter outside the ambit of the hearing
• Mrs. Y was not impartial as Panel Chair as she formulated one of the allegations
• Contrary to policy, I was not afforded my own representation at the suspension meeting
• No evidence that Mr. Z statement was considered
• No Consideration made with respect to my health following my illness

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]I had been under the supervision of my LM for 7 months, I was not directly supervised by her but was a member of her team, day to day I was managed and directed by another Manager working for a differant organisation to which I provided a service. During the 7 months there had been no concern about my behaviour, conduct or performance. The only concern was ongoing sickness absence monitoring linked with a serious car accident 6 months prior and a spinal operation 1 month before the incident which required me to have a phased return to work. At this time I was consuming huge amounts of pain killers, anti-inflamatories and anti-depressants as at the same time the court case against the person responsible for the car accident had collapsed at exactly the same week. The week before the incident I also fell very ill in hospital due to analgesic overdose but due to worry about sickness absence monitoring I returned to work in a state and days later the incidents occured.
I beleive that the reason for complaining was genuine as I experienced treatment that was wrong, but due to being in a state of poor health and judgement due to external influence and medication my facts were wrong and version of events inaccurate, but my reason for complaining were not one of malice or to make a false allegation as I was and still recollect events that have been proven to me didnt not happen but I remember them differantly.
I feel due to my ill health at the time hasnt been considered by the hearing panel in their conclusions, I did not deliberatley make a false accusation but they think I did and that notion that I falsely accused someone is tearing me apart mentally, emotionaly and physically. My health has deteriatrated to the point that I am a gnats pube away from being sectioned and losing everything I have worked for, my house, my relationship and what remaining health I have left..

Jarndyce

Have you listened to a word of the advice you have been given here?