ECONOMY 7.... Anyone understand it ???

Richie-from-the-Boro

Brian99 wrote: »

This discussion is producing a good range of answers, and no doubt the truth will gradually emerge !

My sister's house is in quiet English Lakeland with no gas, the E7 timing DEFINITELY changes day to day. Neighbour finds the same. We believe it is teleswitching. But WHO sends the signals ? We need to know why the AGA is clocking up some full-rate units at night as well as cheap-rate units. WE always believed it was purely using solely cheap units at night.

If the modern meters have complex internal software, which can choose intelligently the best times to switch E7 on and off, (depending on voltage or frequency) maybe someone can confirm this ??? Otherwise I'll assume they dont

- you posted while I was typing
- no it has no intelligence
- it has no decision making capacity
- are you sure your sister is on E7
- E7 is either or - not both
- what tariff is your sister on with whom ?

spiro

grahamc2003 wrote: »

How does the varying times of e7 work with internal clocks? Sometimes, our cheap rate starts at 00:00 till 00:15, then 00:30 to 07:30 (with probably a 15 min of peak rate somewhere in there).

My understand from 'metering experts' is that the meters have some sort of random 'variation' that it applies to the switching times. With tele-switched there are a limited number of 'meter groups' (different times) that exist as the signal does not 'communicate' with each individual meter it 'communicates' to groups of meters.

mattcanary

In the old Eastern area (East Anglia, North London, Hertfordshire, Bedfordshire, parts of Buckinghamshire), there are many timeswitches still around.
They switch over at the same time each day. (except for the fact it varies by one hour between GMT and British Summertime). There are also many older E7 meters that have a teleswitch as opposed to a timeswitch. The time it switches over to the cheaper price does vary slightly day by day day with this set up.

In addition, many new E7 meters will have an internal clock so it can distinguish between night and day prices.


The old timewsitches are unreliable and often become faulty meaning the cheap units of electricity are calculated during the wrong hours

Brian99_2

Ritchie - At my sisters house in Cumbria there is a LARGE board of electronics. It makes dozens of loud clicking sounds as relays switch on or off, late evening and early morning. This is supposed to be Economy 7, can it be anything else ???? LOL

There are two MODERN electronic meters, and each meter has a button to cycle through the displays.
BOTH meters were connected recently (NOT defunct).

Cycling through displays shows time, date, and "rate 1" and "rate 4" . (same on each meter)

Rate 1 is "N" and rate 4 is "L" .... I assume this means Normal and Low.

Both meters have registers for Rate 1 and Rate 4

LEFT hand meter does just Storage heaters, and behaves as expected (flashes only at night, counts lots of cheap units, but none at full rate.)

RIGHT hand meter does the rest of the house and the AGA. This meter is clocking up units on both registers, as expected; but counting up far too many normal rate units at night. AGA should only use cheap units at night. It seems to use both full and cheap units; eg 8 units at full rate were counted overnight; that cant be the fridge. And the immersion heater was OFF for that test. Therefore the switching process is wrong.

The billing company is EON but they just do the billing !!!

grahamc2003

spiro wrote: »

My understand from 'metering experts' is that the meters have some sort of random 'variation' that it applies to the switching times. With tele-switched there are a limited number of 'meter groups' (different times) that exist as the signal does not 'communicate' with each individual meter it 'communicates' to groups of meters.

Could your metering experts supply a reference to that? My final fling in the esi was a stint in the metering registration service at seeboard, and unless things have change drastically (and totally illogically) in the last few years, the situation you describe simply can't exist. E7 times afaiui are controlled (inaccurately and pretty randomly depending on previous power cuts) either by old meters with mechanical switches, or accurately with more modern radio tele-switch meters. I'm unaware - that's not to say they don't exist -of even more modern meters which have reverted back to 'internal clock' switching. All rts e7 meters in the same area switch at the same time in the same area under the control of the dno.

Appreciate a reference from your sources about the e7 meters being installed today under the replacement program. That will settle it once and for all.

Could you think of a reason why 'internally switched' are now preferred to rts meters? I really can't envisage any situation where that would make sense, but prepared to change my mind with some definitive references.

grahamc2003

Brian99 wrote: »

Ritchie - At my sisters house in Cumbria there is a LARGE board of electronics. It makes dozens of loud clicking sounds as relays switch on or off, late evening and early morning. This is supposed to be Economy 7, can it be anything else ???? LOL

There are two MODERN electronic meters, and each meter has a button to cycle through the displays.

Cycling through displays shows time, date, and "rate 1" and "rate 4"

Rate 1 is "N" and rate 4 is "L" .... I assume this means Normal and Low.

Both meters are the same.

One meter does just Storage heaters, and behaves itself. (counts lots of cheap units, the other register is always zero)

The other meter does the rest of the house and the AGA. This meter is definitley counting up far too many normal rate units at night, and therefore the switching process is badly wrong.

The billing company is EON but they just do the billing !!!

Brian - Have you checked your sister is really on an e7 tariff? There used to be (and still are) several off peak tariffs available in different areas, all with their quirks, and some with several (as opposed to 2 for e7) rates.

It's quite possible from what you say that she used to be (or possibly still is) on one of these defunct tariffs - especially as her meter has rate 1 and rate 4 (mine has just rate 1 and 2 - a proper e7 (rts!) meter). The home wiring for an old four or five rate tariff could be unsuitable for e7, although it's possible she or a previous owner, has switched to an e7 tariff. For examplke, its possible that not all usage switches to cheap rate, just some heating circuits. I would think it unlikely (but possible) that some ciruits previuously at one of the cheaper rates, are now on a daytime rate - it depends how the wiring now is.

espresso

Brian99 wrote: »

Questions about "Economy 7", which guarantees 7 hours of cheap juice at night for storage heaters...

The switching on has to be staggered... but do they switch one house at a time ? By computer programs ? And are the commands sent by RADIO, or along the mains cables?

Also, can it be arranged for the whole house to go on cheap juice at night ?

Have a look at this slideshow here where slides 6 & 7 refer to a "Double" Teleswitch meter system. These meters are definitely controlled by radio as stated in post #4 by grahamc2003 and not by any signal sent down the mains cables.

The 500kW 198kHz R4 transmitter at Droitwich carries encoded data which gives a time-of-day signal and control signals for teleswitches. All of the electricity regions have their own user code and this unique user and the various group codes carried by the message, ensure that only teleswitches carrying the same combination of codes will act on them, so meters can be switched in groups within regions.

A photo posted on here should clarify exactly what is installed and how it should be working. Their tariff may not be a simple E7 e.g. it may have a heat boost period during the day as well.

spiro

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Could you think of a reason why 'internally switched' are now preferred to rts meters? I really can't envisage any situation where that would make sense, but prepared to change my mind with some definitive references.

RTS meters work(ed) well when the supplier (biller), DNO (RTS controller) and Meter Operator (meter fitter) all worked for the same company because they had total control. Now that all three are quite often different companies it makes things more complex.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Brian99 wrote: »

Ritchie - At my sisters house in Cumbria there is a LARGE board of electronics. It makes dozens of loud clicking sounds as relays switch on or off, late evening and early morning. This is supposed to be Economy 7, can it be anything else ???? LOL

There are two MODERN electronic meters, and each meter has a button to cycle through the displays.

Cycling through displays shows time, date, and "rate 1" and "rate 4"

Rate 1 is "N" and rate 4 is "L" .... I assume this means Normal and Low.

Both meters are the same.

One meter does just Storage heaters, and behaves itself. (counts lots of cheap units, the other register is always zero)

The other meter does the rest of the house and the AGA. This meter is definitely counting up far too many normal rate units at night, and therefore the switching process is badly wrong.

The billing company is EON but they just do the billing !!!

- 2 separate meters, one 'live' online & in use doing E7, the other apparently doing what you think is non-E7
- only one meter and one set of figures should be in use, the other regardless of what it reads should not be in use
- only one set of numbers should be submitted to your utility provider
- do both meters look like [ colour may be grey / black / white ] this >



Ha ve a look at an actual bill or goto the online account and confirm E7 not E10. I've never known anything other than only one set of figures always from the same meter is being submitted to your leccy provider.

Your situation with one meter providing storage, and the other presumably providing everything else is weird, you say on the one (1) hand its the second meter supplying the AGA and on the other (2) hand you say that same register is always zero.

Do you mean :

- 1 meter works and the other meter does not, or ;
- only one set of numbers on each of the two different meters work ?
- as in low rate on one meter and high rate on the other different meter ?

Brian99_2

RITCHIE - your photo is exactly right !!

There are definitely TWO working meters like that. Probably cos the house has 7 storage heaters and the AGA , and the Immersion heater. (thats a big load for one meter). But I have rewritten my long post 15 to clarify things further; and should answer your questions.