water softner help in chosing and is this true

Doc_N

wealdroam wrote: »

Hi Watersafe. Welcome to the forums.

Are you sure that statement is correct?
Is softened drinking water really bad for you?

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, but can you point us to concrete evidence that softened drinking water is bad for your health?

Just to add:
Are you representing WaterSafe Installers' Scheme Limited?

How about this from the Drinking Water Inspectorate?


If you do install a water softener, it is very important that you make sure that it is correctly installed and you do not soften the water to the tap in your kitchen which is used for drinking and cooking. This is because most water softeners work by replacing the hardness with sodium. Too much sodium can be a problem for premature babies because their kidneys are not good at filtering it out of the blood, and for people who are on a low sodium (low salt) diet.


http://dwi.defra.gov.uk/consumers/advice-leaflets/hardness.pdf

Watersafe

Fitting a separate hard water drinking tap is not required by regulation, except in exceptionally hard water areas (above 400mg/l) where the Sodium content of the treated water (increased due to the softening process) exceeds the level laid down in the Water Supply (Water Quality) Regulations 2000. Fitting a separate drinking water tap is currently recommended by the UK Dept of Health, WRAS and the UKWTA.

Hi Wealdroam,

Thanks for the welcome.

The quote above from UKWTA is also my understanding of the requirements for safe drinking water in the UK.

Watersafe is just my username! I am as it happens though, a qualified plumber and a member of the WaterSafe Scheme although I do not speak on behalf of any organisation. Any comment I have offered is my opinion but also backed by training.

Most Water Softener install guides show that the drinking water draw-off should be the first tee after your main stop tap and before your water softener.

In between your drinking water branch pipe and the inlet to your Water Softener should be a 'Check-Valve'. This is important to prevent softened water from getting back in the wholesome water supply beyond your property (back-flow prevention).

If you choose to drink softened water then that is your choice, but from a professional installer perspective, it is not best practice. My personal opinion is that we shouldn't be adding anything to our drinking water!

Wealdroam, if you believe you are drinking softened water, please as a minimum check that a 'Check-Valve' separates your softened supply from everyone else's wholesome water.

malc_b

Watersafe wrote: »

The heating circuit should be filled with unsoftened water as softened water would accelerate corrosion.

This used to be the advice (BS 7592 1992) but I think that softened water is now suggested (BS 7593 2006). Depends on boiler make so check with maker. It was aluminium heat exchangers that were thought to be at risk but tests show that isn't the case. And of course some boilers have stainless steel or copper next to the water.

Watersafe

BS 7593 2006 covers the filling of the primary water in the heating system. It basically states that 'Central Heating Scale & Corrosion Inhibitor' should be added. There is no reference as to whether the water should be softened or unsoftened.

I do agree with Malc_b though with referring to the specific boiler instruction manual in relation to treatment products and special requirements.

It is really the hot water side of the system we are concerned with in relation to water Softeners; it would usually be your heating engineer filling your heating system, and I would personally fill with unsoftened water and let the inhibitor do it's job.

The hot water side does need to have some form of scale reduction in place.

My understanding with the concern over Aluminium heat exchangers is more in relation to system preparation and cleaning of the system. We have to be aware of which chemicals to use when Power Flushing the primary circuit as the powerful acid chemicals we use cannot be used when there is Aluminium (heat exchangers and radiators).

malc_b

I think BS in 1992 used to say use unsoftened water so 2006 allows softened water if manufacturer allows it. Softening lowers the ph slightly which is why 1992 said not to use it. However, form a net search it seems like softened water is only slightly lower ph than hard water and still higher than true soft water.

But hard water with inhibitor is not the same as softened water with inhibitor. Softened water has the calcium ions removed so you can get scale forming. Hard water with inhibitor just inhibits scale forming, maybe. The primary purpose of inhibitor is to stop rusting, I'm not sure how good a job it does of scale prevention. I suspect prevention of scale forming is mainly down to the fact it is a closed system, not like a kettle where you lose water due to steam so hard to deposit the solids dissolved in the water.

tesh87

Hi All -

Been reading through a number of pages now and even more confused at which Water Softener to buy.

I have had a quote for the usual suspects - Kinetico, Twintec S3, Minimax M2 and also EWT Gold 606 as thats been heavily advertised. Another one I've seen advertised a bit is a Softnetic model. Prices are varied with the Kinetico, S2 and M2 around the £1400-1600 mark which is a lot. The ETW is coming out around £600.

I've then come into this forum and read a number of othermodels that i havent heard before.

What has been helpful on this site and others is mention of the efficiency, water flows, water usage and salt cost. However, has anyone created a comparison tool that I can plug values into and then compare side by side? If not, if someone can help me with what are the key numbers, metrics and sums I can then easily create something to share with this forum...

Also, i'm concerned about the impact of getting a softener which impacts pressure. I have a megaflo system (its a new build house) and wondered what impact there will be. Does this indicate a difference between going for a twin cylinder or single?

Lastly, i'm looking for this softener to go into a 4 bedroom house, 2 bathrooms with 2 people for now but as this is a long term investment this will need to cope with a full household!

Any help would be much appreciated.

Doc_N

tesh87 wrote: »

Any help would be much appreciated.

I think the best advice would have to be to look through the thread - it's impossible to precis.

I would make a couple of brief comments which might help, though:

1 You don't need two cylinders. It's just an expensive gimmick.

2 You don't need to spend more than about £500 for a decent softener.

3 There will be some impact on pressure, but in many cases you'd have to fit a pressure-reducing valve for the softener anyway, depending on the mains pressure. I have a pressure reducing valve to reduce the pressure to the recommended level for my Tapworks AD11 and there's never been any problem with the Megaflo.

cyrix2000

Hi,

I'm interested in the Tapworks softeners. One installer (who is usually selling Ecowater systems), explained to me that the difference between the two products is that Tapworks is using "total gard ester" when regenerating and so needs regular servicing compared to the Ecowater system which needs no servicing.

Does this make sense to you?

Doc_N

cyrix2000 wrote: »

Hi,

I'm interested in the Tapworks softeners. One installer (who is usually selling Ecowater systems), explained to me that the difference between the two products is that Tapworks is using "total gard ester" when regenerating and so needs regular servicing compared to the Ecowater system which needs no servicing.

Does this make sense to you?

Loving that one! Never heard of that term - and neither, it seems, has Google.

I spoke to a senior executive at Ecowater to check this, and was told that apart from the more sophisticated programmer and the case, the machines are pretty much identical. Same manufacturer, same mechanical parts, same operation, but a more sophisticate programmer and a rather longer warranty.

Ecowater suppliers are very unlikely to tell you this, because Tapworks machines are about a third of the price and they know that they'd not be able to sell their Ecowaters. They always go on about the machines being entirely different, but believe me, they're not. You only have to look at them side by side, which I've done, to see that. Ignore the case - just look at the internals.

Total Gard Ester indeed! Ask him to explain what that is, and back it up with some documentary evidence!

csgohan4

Doc_N wrote: »

Loving that one! Never heard of that term - and neither, it seems, has Google.

I spoke to a senior executive at Ecowater to check this, and was told that apart from the more sophisticated programmer and the case, the machines are pretty much identical. Same manufacturer, same mechanical parts, same operation, but a more sophisticate programmer and a rather longer warranty.

Ecowater suppliers are very unlikely to tell you this, because Tapworks machines are about a third of the price and they know that they'd not be able to sell their Ecowaters. They always go on about the machines being entirely different, but believe me, they're not. You only have to look at them side by side, which I've done, to see that. Ignore the case - just look at the internals.

Total Gard Ester indeed! Ask him to explain what that is, and back it up with some documentary evidence!

I agree with you there, they rebrand the Softners often.


I have the plumbsoft solo and the installer mentioned it was the same as a Harvey's model just branded differently.