water softner help in chosing and is this true

Doc_N

malc_b wrote: »

I assume you mean like http://tapworks.co.uk/infinity/ which does not say how much salt or water a regen uses. I have looked. If I missed it then please point me towards the right page.

As update, I found some useful info on http://www.easyh2o.co.uk which is about the only site I have found to say water and salt used in regen as well as litres between regen.

Did you look at this on the page you referred to:

http://tapworks.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Specification-sheet-2015.pdf

It will allow you to calculate the salt usage you're looking for, but not the water usage. The former is important, but for most people (including me - and I've been using softeners for 35 years now, with a water meter for most of that time) the latter isn't.

You'll find an email address and a phone number on the PDF, though, and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to help. I've always found them very helpful.

malc_b

Thanks for that. I hadn't noticed the phone number and email address on the spec sheet although I had seen the other figures. No water usage as you said.

I've run the numbers from H2O site and the water is less than the salt but not insignificant. My numbers base on 15l GE coral 15NFK are water is 21% of the running cost. Given that EMWC say their EML 15l uses 115l (compared to 59l) it makes a significant difference, the amount of water a unit uses.

ex_directory

Thought I would give an update to my earlier reply as I see the Wrekin ECO15 has now come down in price.

Re recent posts, would be good to find out the salt use on regen for the ECO15 - anyone know?

Tapworks AD15 = £656 inc 22mm kit
- Ecowater value brand, same as ecowater except controller is not as good
- Water use per regeneration - 52 litres
- Salt use per regeneration: 1.0 - 1.9kg
- Min/Max daytime pressure 1.7/4.76 bar
- Max flow rate (peak) 51.7 litre/minute
- Max softened water capacity @300ppm 3333 litres
- Dimensions (hxdxw) 810x496x296mm
- Resin volume - 14 litres
- Warranty 2 years (parts), 0 years labour

Monarch Midi = £469.31 inc 22mm kit
- Water use per regeneration - 58 litres
- Salt use per regeneration: 1.0 - 1.7kg
- Min/Max daytime pressure 1.5/5 bar
- Max flow rate (peak): 78 litres/minute
- Max softened water capacity @300ppm ? litres = NOT FOUND ONLINE
- Dimensions (hxdxw) 575x465x275mm
- Resin volume - 14.7 litres
- Warranty 7 years (parts), 2 years labour

Wrekin ECO15 = £545 inc 22mm kit
- Water use per regeneration - 59 litres
- Salt use per regeneration: ? NOT FOUND ONLINE
- Min/Max daytime pressure 1.5/8 bar
- Max flow rate (peak): 41.6 litres/minute
- Max softened water capacity @300ppm 2500 litres
- Dimensions (hxdxw) 600x420x270mm
- Resin volume - 15 litres
- Warranty 5 years (parts), 1 years labour

malc_b

I'm finding it very hard to chose a softener. Autotrol valve is recommend and as someone very handy I like that idea since with all the info on the net on the Autotrol I could repair it myself, probably, when outside warranty that is. Because of that I haven't looked at warranty, nor checked out whether their are warranty catches (like 10yrs but only if you pay for servicing).

I'm trying to work out, cost based on salt and water usage, as I reckon water usage is a significant part of the cost. I do wonder when people calculate the cost of water whether they take into account the sewage cost too? My water (wessex) is £2.09 m3, but 95% of that water is reckoned to come back as sewage so each m3 used is £2.09+95%*£1.79. 1000l (1m3) is thus £3.79, near double £2.09. A unit using say 124l and 2.04kg of salt (salt at £12.59/25kg) would cost £1.03 in salt, 47p in water (those are figures I have been given for the Coral 15l 255-760). The water save version, 255-762, is said to use 1.8kg +79l => 91p + 30p

The issue in the mix is that some units, like tapworks, will do a reduced regen. I'm not sure if Autotrol has that ability. So if it doesn't the question is then how much salt/water is wasted when it does a regen at say 80% having worked out that 20% isn't enough for the next day. It is worth the extra for a clever softener or would save £10 pa having paying £100 more?

The lack of tested salt/water usage figures in very frustrating. It's like trying to chose a washing machine with no energy, water, or spin speed figures.

Update:

It seems like the Autotrol uses some water based on time, so it depends on water pressure how much water you use. This would explain why I'm getting different figures for the same unit, it depends on what water pressure they are using to measure. On the assumption that water pressure is always more at night I wonder if a pressure limiting valve would make the pressure more stable and save regen water?

malc_b

I came across this useful link for those who want to understand how to get the best out of softeners. It's all in American units unfortunately but it is enough to get drift.

The upshot is, use more salt and you increase the resin capacity so you go longer between regens, but use more water.

The other useful link, fro those looking at an Autotrol valve is here. The manual "Manual: 740 760 Service (3003714)" is interesting. The back has curves showing flow vs pressure. Since parts of the regen, backwashing and flushing are just timed the amount of water used will depend on the water pressure. Seems to me that fitting a PRV to limit the water pressure range is a good idea, depending on how much your water pressure varies of course. Toolstation have a water pressure gauge for a tenner.

csgohan4

Any ideas on using an electric vs non electric. A plumber mentioned the electric ones break down more often and need servicing more. In addition they need less salt and water.


What do you think? He was looking at twintec S3, while I was originally wanting a Monarach Midi

Doc_N

csgohan4 wrote: »

Any ideas on using an electric vs non electric. A plumber mentioned the electric ones break down more often and need servicing more. In addition they need less salt and water.


What do you think? He was looking at twintec S3, while I was originally wanting a Monarach Midi

Never had a non-electric in all of 35 years, so I wouldn't know about their reliability.

I can tell you, though, that in all of that 35 years I haven't had one breakdown, and in that period I recall having just one (probably unnecessary) service. They very rarely go wrong, because there's very little to go wrong.

haribizzle

Hi all,

Thanks for all the info...
I had a demo with Harveys and was quoted £1600 which is quite a lot considering I'm living alone.

Saw a link to EW Technologies and they offered a good price of £630 for a metered unit, installed with 1 year labour and 15 year parts guarantee. They're scheduled to come in Wednesday to install.

Now, I just received a customer survey call from Harveys and I told them it was too expensive and have gone for a competitor. Without me mentioning the name, the agent then went on to say, if there's any advice I can give, please do no go with EW Technologies as they have heard so many bad stories about them. I found it very strange for a company to slag off another in this manner but this has now got me worried.

Can anyone provide their experiences with EW Technologies? I'm not sure what I should do.

Thanks

HP_Source

I can't answer your question directly, haribizzle, because I have no direct experience of either softener. However I've had water softeners for some 20 years and during that time have learnt a fair bit about them.

The first softener we had was a Tapworks (can't remember the model). It softened the water fine - when it was working! We only kept for about 5 years because the valve kept developing faults. The second was a cheap Permutit softener from B&Q and has lasted 15 years without problem. I've just installed an Atlantis AT210 but only because the B&Q softener won't fit in our remodelled utility room.

The part of a water softener which is most likely to give problems is the control valve. It has quite a complex series of functions to perform and is working in an unfriendly environment (very salty water). For those reasons I would only choose a softener that uses a well tried and tested industry standard valve - Autotrol or Fleck. Not only have these valves been proven over time but spare parts are easily available and all water softener engineers are familiar with them.

So my advice would be to find out which valve each of the softeners you mention uses and go from there.

The price you have been quoted by Harveys is, frankly, ridiculous for a domestic water softener and it's seriously unprofessional for a member of their staff to slag off a competitor's product.

haribizzle

I've gone for the EWT 606 model (can't post link) it doesn't say anything about the valves. I will call them tomorrow to see if i can find out anything more.

While it is a bit strange for a company to slag off another, it has at least opened my eyes a bit.
On one hand, they could be genuine and trying to help me in avoiding a bad company.....or it could be that they see them as a direct competitor and therefore playing dirty. unsure what to think