water softner help in chosing and is this true

George_Bray

globalds wrote: »

Hi all .Sorry if this is a bit of a thread hijack ...But I just won this on ebay
It was cheap ...I was just wondering if I had bought a dud ..People keep mentioning resin in posts ..Do you think it will have run out in this machine?
...if so how much are replacements

I wouldn't have hesitated to buy this item if I was looking for an automatic water softener. It strikes me as a great deal and vastly preferable to spending £400 on a similar new one, let alone £1000+ from some rip-off merchants.

The resin can't 'run out' as in the volume going down, unless someone has tipped some out. In theory, the resin can lose efficiency over a long period of time or, I guess, if someone has damaged it by tipping something 'hostile' into the cyclinder - all unlikely. In my experience, the resin can still work almost as good as new, even after 10 or 20 years. So I reckon you're on to a winner. The main working part of most softeners, like your new purchase, is the control valve / head assembly. Even if that stopped working, I'd just replenish it with salt manually.

For anyone seeking a new machine at a reasonable price, Screwfix.com may be a good place to look.

I agree with most of what moonrakerz has written. There's a lot of nonsense, criminal over-pricing and jargon in the field of water softeners. Keep it simple.

Regards
George

globalds

Sorry but after reading the thread I now have one more question .
Someone mentioned that preofessional fitters will test water to see how much to set the softener .
Is it possible to conduct this test myself ,and where do I get the test kit ?

George_Bray

globalds wrote: »

Someone mentioned that preofessional fitters will test water to see how much to set the softener. Is it possible to conduct this test myself ,and where do I get the test kit ?

That sounds like a bit of theatrics to me, to help justify a big fat professional fee. I assume they claim it's needed to help 'calibrate' the control head, so it replenishes the resin with salt at roughly the correct intervals. The harder your water is, entering the machine, the less time (days or weeks) the resin will last before needing more brine (salt) passed through it. But I'd test the water and work out the best intervals myself. I'm sure it's possible for the 'end user' to adjust the control valve. I'd never trust any so-called professional to do it. Neither would I use a water-softening specialist to plumb it in, in the first place. If you can't connect the pipes youself, best to find the cheapest Polish plumber who's capable of doing the very basic connection work.

The test kits (10 tablets) can be bought from Homebase, Screwfix and many other outlets for £1.99. I cut them in half and use half as much water in each sample, to make them last twice as long. Also, if the water coming out of the softener is as soft as it should be, you'll only need a little pinch of a crumbled-up tablet to get the water to turn blue for soft. There's no need for a Money Saver to use a whole tablet. The incoming (hard) water may need several whole tablets before the water turns from red (hard) to blue (soft). You don't need to waste tablets to find out how hard your water is - your water authority should give this data on their website for your location, or phone them to ask the same question. That's the main reason why I suggest the 'specialists' may be into theatrics.

Regards
George

moonrakerz

George_Bray wrote: »

That sounds like a bit of theatrics to me, to help justify a big fat professional fee. I assume they claim it's needed to help 'calibrate' the control head, so it replenishes the resin with salt at roughly the correct intervals. The harder your water is, entering the machine, the less time (days or weeks) the resin will last before needing more brine (salt) passed through it. But I'd test the water and work out the best intervals myself. I'm sure it's possible for the 'end user' to adjust the control valve.

Some softeners allow the user to adjust how much salt is used at each regeneration, on others you just alter the frequency at which the unit regenerates. Just trial and error for a couple of weeks !
If for some reason you suddenly use a huge amount of water; 8 people come to stay and all have baths, loads of dirty laundry and go to the loo 18 times a day, you can just override the timer and do a manual regeneration.

globalds

Thanks for those replies. All the information I need to be getting on with ,Thanks very much
I don't doubt that there are a few more twists and turns before this stories finished though...I may be back for a bit more help.

[Deleted User]

Hi everyone,
I live in a very hard water area, and was following this thread with some interest as I too decided on the Kinetico 2020c, but have been persuaded away from it to, initially, the Crown - a similar twin-cylinder device for about £400 less. My decision was based on a preference not to have it plugged in to the mains for power and the convenience of block salt.

Eventually, after a very long conversation with a friendly and independent salesperson, I've settled for the MicroBoss II (which I haven't seen mentioned in these forums yet).

It's advertised as an 'very efficient' softener and is guaranteed to use a 25kg bag of salt per person per year (and is about £4.50 a bag) and about £10 p.a. in electrickery. It regenerates every 280 gallons and uses up to 50 litres of water and 3lbs of salt.

The total cost (including the softener, installation, 5 bags of salt, a filter tap system and a softened outside tap for washing the car) is £940.

Does that seem reasonable?

Thank you,

Peter

vrstu

Seems a lot for an electric one to me.

I had my 2020c installed today - very neat job.

moonrakerz

[quote=[Deleted User];7812269]My decision was based on a preference not to have it plugged in to the mains for power

It's advertised as an 'very efficient' softener and is guaranteed to use a 25kg bag of salt per person per year (and is about £4.50 a bag) and about £10 p.a. in electrickery. It regenerates every 280 gallons and uses up to 50 litres of water and 3lbs of salt.

Peter[/quote]

Firstly, welcome to MSE !

A few comments:-

1. If it isn't plugged into the mains, how does it use "electrickery" ? An advert for a similar machine, from the same manufacturer, states:- "Electrical rating - 12v, 50/60 cycle".

2. If you are in a very hard water area there is no way that you will use 25kg of salt, per person per year.
The average water consumption per person in the UK is 150L/day, which means that your unit will need to regenerate about every 8 days (for one person, every 4 days for 2 people, etc, etc !), at 3lbs of salt per regeneration that comes to about 60kg of salt a year. I have found a technical description of the softener in question - the one bag per year (so prominently quoted !) is based on 1lb per regeneration and the size of "a bag" is not defined. A bag is usually 25kg.

3.You state that a bag of salt is £4.50 - a "bag" of block salt is certainly that price - but for that money you get 8 kg of salt. Have you been led to understand that your running costs will be £4.50 a year ? They WILL NOT be !
A 25 kg bag of loose granular salt is around £7. Pellets or tablets a £1 or so more.

4. One dealer says this: "Contemporary Style With a streamline design it’s stylish enough to display on a kitchen/utility surface" !! For Pete's sake - it lives in a cupboard under the sink !

I said in an earlier post that there are a lot of very slick salesmen in the water softener business. I just don't understand why people want to pay £1000 for a machine when you need only pay £200 for a machine that does the job just as well.
I have had one in my houses for over 30 years and wouldn't be without one - but please be very careful what you believe from a salesman, or read in a brochure - take everything with a large pinch of salt ! (sorry, couldn't resist that one !)

[Deleted User]

Sorry, I meant to say the plan was to have a non-mains softener, but I preferred the efficiency of the Microboss 2, and it (allegedly) only costs about £10 per year to run.

They're selling 25kg bags of tablet salt for about £4.50 incl VAT and are adamant the manufacturer guarantees 1x 25kg bag per person per year. I did find this a little difficult to believe but they assured me the manufacturer guarantees it for domestic use - including washing the car!

I don't want to pay £1000, but it seems to be about the average with whomever I talk to, and I'm really fed up with having to descale or bin everything so often.

Peter

George_Bray

[quote=[Deleted User];7843647]I don't want to pay £1000, but it seems to be about the average with whomever I talk to, and I'm really fed up with having to descale or bin everything so often.[/quote]

You're not placing much credence on the superior value pricing suggestions which moonrakerz and I, amongst others, have made on this thread then? Of course, most people in the trade will tell you that you need to pay £1000 because it's a racket with huge profit margins. I respectfully suggest it's money down the drain.

I believe most brands of resin (and there aren't very many different types) will have very similar 'processing power' as in the amount of water that a given volume of resin can soften before it needs replenishing with salt. And the amount of salt needed will be very similar between brands of resin, too - almost identical I suggest. So it just depends how efficient a machine is at processing an optimal amount of salt. Manual replenishment is by far the most efficient and cheapest because you can control the brine concentration, leave it to 'soak in' for longer, and use ANY type of salt from table salt to block salt - whichever is cheapest. I don't trust most of the people behind the marketing of these softeners. They make misleading claims so one machine may or may not use more salt than another for a given household, over the course of a year. The automatic salt replenishment process is also very wasteful - environmentally unfriendly really - in using large volumes of water during the replenishment process.