water softner help in chosing and is this true

George_Bray

nerdycatlover wrote: »

I take it you were not impressed by my link. Unfortunately,I never took Chemistry at school and am not likely to start now, so I have to take this kind of information on trust to a certain point. You obviously have experience in this field,so I am grateful for your input. I`m certainly no expert on boilers, or stainless steel. But something is corroding in a Potterton Powermax Boiler with a water softener (as recommended in manual) and it`s meant to have stainless steel innards. It`s still under guarantee.The radiators are apparently not leaking into the system as that would cause a change in pressure and make the boiler shut down. However, the hot water comes out reddish/orange/brown, but not all the time.We think there is a sludge of this material at the bottom of the tank, which will not drain out.
Any thoughts you have about this would be much appreciated.:beer:

Thank you for the link. Yes, it's interesting but, like you, I'm not expert enough to know if what they say is correct. I don't know what's producing the coloured water in your case, but it sounds like rust. This could be rust from welded joints if they are sub-standard or from certain elements which are plain steel. I'd be amazed though (1) if Potterton make boilers with parts that rust or (2) if softened water starts rusting, whereas hard water does not. But what can you do? I don't know. In such cases, I'd feel vulnerable to suggestions like the need for a 'power flush' which could cost £800, or a fraction of that if you look around. First priority must be to identify where exactly the color is coming from, then what's causing it, and what you can do to remedy it. Definitely get rid of any obvious sludge,. then press on with the softener and see if the sludge comes back. Perhaps the colour is not coming from the boiler but from other parts of the system.

Buster_in_the_Park

Please excuse this complete “dodo” on things technical so I need help.
I’m currently “between” water softeners, as my 12 yr old Waterside (Culligan) MC250 is so ineffective and unreliable I need to change it.
I had cause to complain to Culligan’s CEO in America and they’re now wooing me to buy a Water Genie 15 ltr machine at a special price of £650 fully installed and with a 2 yr parts and labour guarantee. I still have the “plumbing in” from the MC250.
I took out a 4 yr service contract on the MC250, thank god, because I used it quite a lot, but I have to say that apart from the last incident which caused the complaint ie they tried to charge me £176 to repair a 12 year old machine, I have found Culligan’s service response to be very professional.
So, I now have to make a choice, and looking across all the various providers I find the whole industry very incestuous, and the word “Independent” which can be found on every WT supplier is a joke!! Also, the whole industry seems totally fragmented with lots of small dealers working from their home address. Everybody seems to slag off everyone else. Hence my post to you but can I ask your status – are you a supplier or just good MSE zealots with a lot of WT knowledge?
I would value your obvious expertise on the following questions which arise through my trawling of MSE posts and discussions with potential suppliers. I have quite a large house with several bathrooms and my wife is a constant user of our washing machine, and she also does our left-home daughter’s family washing! So …….. to my questions
• If I look at comments from both of you, the benefits of constant softening by a twin tank is not worth the costs, so I’m minded to focus on a single tank.. I presume you agree?
• I have a Megaflow sealed system so I’m told I need a 22m high-flow valve rather than a standard 15mm. Do you agree?
• As to control valves – I’ve had at least a couple of dealers slagging off Culligan’s Millennium valves which they seem to put on all machines. Apparently the one to go for is a Fleck Valve 5600. Views?
• Basically I just want something that provides lovely sweet soft water from a machine which I lock away in a cupboard under a sink and fill with slat occasionally.
I suppose the inevitable question that I fear to ask anyone who is obviously not independent and unbiasised is
“What sodding machine should I get??!!” HELP MUCH APPRECIATED

Matt_Filterman

Hi all.
Iron oxide is quite common in water supplies. On mains water this usually comes from old cast iron pipes in the supply network. If the house is one of 50,000 dwellings on its own private supply (ie a spring, well or borehole) then this could very easily be from the naturally occuring iron found in many areas of the UK.
I would be very suprised to see iron oxide corrosion comming from a stainless steel heat exchanger..
Matt

Doc_N

Doc_N wrote: »

No, but their argument has always been that water coming from a softener has a corrosive effect on certain metals. This could possibly include copper, because when I first installed a softener, back in 1984, the advice from the manufacturer (Permutit) was that with softened water it was even more essential to ensure that the heating system contained a corrosion inhibitor.

It was, as I recall, to do with the increased alkalinity of the water because of the sodium ions originating in the salt.

Whether this makes sense, I have no idea, but I wasn't about to take any chances with it, so I just made sure the Fernox was kept topped up.

nerdycatlover wrote: »

Hi Guys! Just trawling this thread to find out what`s wrong with our son`s boiler and if it may be caused by his water softener. Someone mentioned corrosion a few posts back.With regard to stainless steel, if anyone else is interested.....
http://corrosion-doctors.org/MatSelect/rouging.htm

Please look at .Class11 Rouge about halfway in. Scary. Is this a well-kept secret,or wot?

That's an interesting reference. As I said above, there's always been some doubt about the effect of softened water on metal pipes etc, but perhaps it's not the sodium (NA) ions that are the problem, but the chlorides (Cl). Certainly the formulae you referred to suggest that.

This could well be why boiler manufacturers are wary of softened water, but I have no idea why a Potterton Powermax might present any special difficulties. Was there a specific warning against softeners in the original product information?

Matt_Filterman

Hi Buster in the Park.

I read your post with interest, particularly as you mentioned your past softener being a Culligan MC 250. If you have read any of my previous posts you'll know how I feel about this machine!!!
Having said that I'm glad that your dealings with Culligan were pleasant enough.

Regarding a new machine I might argue that the only thing wrong with the MC 250 was the valve on top of the softener. The cabinet, resin vessel and resin were all perfectly good and so just exchanging the valve (and maybe the resin after 12 years!) might be the best money saving option?.. just a thought anyway.

Regarding a whole new unit you are fairly restricted in your choice due to the fact that your old softener was fitted in the kitchen under the sink and so space is a limitation. I would always try and select a softener with an industry standard valve rather than a manufacturers own. The Fleck 5600 is a very good example of a good quality, reliable valve that has stood the test of time and can be maintained by just about any water softener engineer if required. The Autotrol 255 and the Clack WS1 also fit into this category.

I would be inclined to try and buy locally and preferably from a shop dedicated to water filtration.. there are a few about.

As you have a direct system you will be better off having larger bore pipes feeding your softener.. with modern 22mm plastic pipework systems such as Hep2O it would be almost as easy to pipe up directly rather than using the washing machine type hoses often supplied with these machines. You will however always get a certain ammount of pressure drop through any softener, particularly at high flow rates.

Bottom line. If you can buy a softener with a Fleck 5600/ Autotrol 255 valve from a local company for around £350 to £400 you will probably be the right ball park.

You were interested to know about the background of anyone replying to your post. I like this thread because it is fairly unique, open and honest and so I'm happy to take part. I've been in the industry for many years and still passionate about what I do. I have never tried to sell anything to anyone (and never will) on this site and so my advice is totally un-biased.

Hope all of this helps.

Matt

spirit

Hi, I am a newbie to water softeners.

I have read most of this thread - with interest. I had googled water softeners and found Ensign but can't see any info good or bad on them on here.

They look quite expensive though after having looked at the Tapworks AD 11 which is mentioned a lot here. I've mailed the local (Berkshire) sales guy from their site to find out where to get one. I'm no plumber though, do you know if they'll recommend a local plumber to fit it too?

Not sure yet where best to fit it either. I'll be having the kitchen re-done but if it takes up a lot of room, there is a water supply at the back of the garage, I guess it's a kind of utility room (I've not yet bought the house, due to exchange contracts this week)

any advice gratefully received.

Matt_Filterman

Hi spirit.
I've had a look at the company you mentioned and they do look a little expensive.. probably well made though.
I'm not well up on the Tapworks AD11 but I know Doc N is a big fan of these units. I've come across them in their Eccowater guise and they seemed well engineered and reliable.
My advice is still the same though, and that would be to find a locally based company that specialises in softeners. A good unit shouldn't cost more than £400 to £500 if fitted with an industry standard control valve and installation should be in the region of £150 plus parts maybe.

Regards Matt

Doc_N

Matt_Filterman wrote: »

Hi spirit.
I'm not well up on the Tapworks AD11 but I know Doc N is a big fan of these units. I've come across them in their Eccowater guise and they seemed well engineered and reliable.
Regards Matt

I should add a note of warning here. I've always recommended the Tapworks AD11 and other models on the basis that they're pretty much identical to their Ecowater equivalents (which I know from personal experience to be very good, and very reliable).

You should check this out though - I was told recently by an Ecowater dealer that the Tapworks models are VERY different from their Ecowater equivalents, mechanically and electronically. He sells both and assured me that the Tapworks models are very inferior.

But then - he would say that, wouldn't he? He wants to sell the Ecowater models because there's far more profit per unit.

I don't know the truth of it - best get all the specifications of Ecowater and Tapworks models to check that they're as similar as I think they are. I may be wrong though - so do check (and please feed back).

spirit

I've e-mailed a local independent plumber (specialising in softeners) and this is his reply to me. I'd appreciate your comments please.


The idea of getting a softener is a very good practical proposition.
Especially when you are having a new kitchen or bathroom because softened
water will keep your new sink better as well as all your appliances -
boiler,washing machine, dishwasher (if it can accept soft water, which you
can check). A softener will get it's money back for you over a couple of
years so the sooner you install one the sooner it will benefit you.

I'm a freelance plumber and I can install any softener you like including
the Tapworks. However I don't think that it is the best one available. A
twin non electric is quite a bit better and will last a lot longer with less
problems. They are a bit more expensive but will probably save you more on
the soaps and washing products. If there is one bathroom in the house and
less than four persons you can get away with a single tank softener so you
have the choice! Watch out for the size of the AD11 it's quite tall at
648mm. You might want to measure inside the cupboard or the area where it's
going to be fitted.

I can fit your new softener when ever you like with at least two days notice
and I supply full back up for two years. I install Harvey Softeners mostly
and I was in their factory in Woking last week for a day. I can assure you
their softeners are top quality and they are very helpful to me in getting
people the right machines. They will sort out any machine problems but I
have never yet had a problem with their softeners in three years.

http://www.harveysofteners.com/

just had a look at the website myself and they used to be called Kinetico

Matt_Filterman

Hi spirit.

Once again I'm not well up on Harvey softeners but I've never heard anything bad said about them either. The plumber sounds to be knowlegable about what he is talking about which does inspire confidence. Has he done any work in your area you might be able to have a look at?..
I can imagine the twin tank softener will be quite a lot more expensive than a single tank system. It might be worth asking if, and how much, he could supply a single tank unit for with either a Fleck 5600 or Autotrol 255 valve (timed units should be around £400 and volumetric units £500 with these valves fitted).

Matt