water softner help in chosing and is this true

jsinc

Rodders53 said:

jsinc said:Maybe with a 3-way tap although seems soft water is ok to drink really so undecided on that.

SWMBO would say to fit a hard water drinking tap 100%;  although softened is safe for most people to drink (babies and very low salt diet excepted).

We moved into a house with softener installed in the attached garage and it does the whole house.   I can't taste any difference but SWMBO and our little granddaughter both dislike the softened stuff' taste.  A very, very difficult route to add a hard water source to the kitchen, so I fill a few plastic containers with hard for tea/coffee and drinking generally.

Cheers. I'm not bothered but others are and visitors might be. Kitchen tap's leaking anyway so may as well replace with a new 3-way. Without additional filter cartridge - silly prices for regular replacements.

bazzie

andynb said:

Hi, Yes, you are misunderstanding.  The programmed time is 2:00 am, but not every day.  It also meausres the water usage, and will run at another time if you have completely used up the resin, but in general, it will wait until the middle of the night after the resin goes below a certain level, because with a single-tank unit like this, you can't draw water while it is regenerating.  Don't bother checking it is regenerating or manually initiating it - just let it get on with its job and see how long the salt lasts.  Probably five days or so between regenerations...  To see whether it is working, do a hardness test.

By the way, I have a Harvey (well two, actually) nad they have given no trouble at all over many years.

Hi
Thank you so much for clarifying - I thought I had a dud machine or something!! So I should expect it to do an auto regeneration every 5 days or so then - I will monitor the salt usage every 5 days to see if it going down as I do not fancy staying up till 2am every time.

On another note - I was under the impression that a water softener will soften the WHOLE house system & will therefore over time remove all the limescale & crud that is probably lining all our plumbing pipes, radiators & heating system & then once done, will ensure that they are kept clean & trouble free as well as protecting the boiler which was very important to me & primarily why I bought one. I just had a very expensive top end boiler from Viessmann installed last year as our old one was always breaking down due to limescale issues so I desperately wanted to avoid this happening again.

Having read the Monarch Manual, I am more than dismayed to read/find out that it says NOT to have the central heating system (& I therefore I assume all the piping connected to the radiators & going to the boiler) run with Soft Water due to some guidelines etc?

Does this then not leave all the radiators, piping & heating system vulnerable to limescale with hard & contaminated water still going into my new boiler which risks crudding them up again over time? I do not understand why one would use hard water on a heating system & then use questionable chemicals unsure of how well they might be doing their job when when can use Soft water which is guaranteed not to cause limescale build up in the system & ensures it stays clean? This was my prime reason for buying the water softener & having soft water at the taps I saw as a bonus.

I should have researched better but none of the manufacturers websites mentioned this if I recall & neither did all many the installers I got round for a quote when discussing installing water softeners as I told them all I wanted to get one to keep the entire heating system & boiler clean & free of issues that have plagued us previously - have I just waste a huge chunk of money?

I apologise for asking what must be frustrating questions but I am a novice in these matters - just out of interest, why does the heating system/rads etc have to use hard water & what bad things can happen if one used soft water instead?

Many Thanks.

Doc_N

Bazzie, it depends very much on the particular boiler, and the radiators.  The whole point of a softener is to soften the water across the whole house, apart from the kitchen tap.  That should include radiators and immersion tank - key components that hard water will damage.

I'm puzzled by what Monarch say - maybe they're covering their back.  It is essential that you check out your particular boiler though - and the way that the water passes through it.  You may find that it's just a hard water loop.

bazzie

Doc_N said:

Bazzie, it depends very much on the particular boiler, and the radiators.  The whole point of a softener is to soften the water across the whole house, apart from the kitchen tap.  That should include radiators and immersion tank - key components that hard water will damage.

I'm puzzled by what Monarch say - maybe they're covering their back.  It is essential that you check out your particular boiler though - and the way that the water passes through it.  You may find that it's just a hard water loop.

Hi Doc_N,

Thanks kindly for responding & affirming what I had originally believed or was led to believe that a WS should protect the WHOLE House. I have no idea now how the Installer set things up & whether hard water is to the radiators & associated piping back to the boiler or not.

My Boiler is a Viessmann 222-F 35Kw (variant BT2B) which is a large Combi-Storage model in case that might help - please see pic attached.

How & what do I check my boiler for - there is just a bunch of convoluted piping done (not very well at all) by the original installer who I turned out to be a charlatan - had to get Gas Safe in to ensure it was all safe. My last Installer said to leave it as it would be too costly to neaten it all up & he said that although it is messy & does not look good, he said it all works (after he adjusted a  few things) & that it is at least now safe.

What is a hard water loop & how do I find it?

So, may I ask you & all others that might read this, does your WS also use soft water in your radiators, central heating & boiler etc or hard water? This will give me some sort of guide based on what the majority here have!

Many Thanks!

malc_b

Just to clarify a few things.  If the boiler is a combi then the hot water is separate to the CH side.  The hot water side needs softened water because it is always fresh water going through this, hence like a kettle is will scale up.  The CH side has a closed water supply so you'll get a bit of scale but once the water has reached maximum you won't get any more scale out of it until you replace the water.  On a modern system the CH side will be sealed and there will be a filling loop to replace the small amounts lost (i.e. cleaning the magnetite filter).  An old system (or a new boiler on an old system) will have a small cistern in the loft.  This is exposed to the air so will lose water over time.  This tank will have a ball !!!!!! so it will replace the lost water automatically.

Modern boilers should be ok with softened water on CH side but best to check.  At one time they all said use hard water just to CYA.  I believe BS has stopped that now and say that instructions should say softened water is ok, unless there really is a good reason not to use it.

bazzie

malc_b said:

Just to clarify a few things.  If the boiler is a combi then the hot water is separate to the CH side.  The hot water side needs softened water because it is always fresh water going through this, hence like a kettle is will scale up.  The CH side has a closed water supply so you'll get a bit of scale but once the water has reached maximum you won't get any more scale out of it until you replace the water.  On a modern system the CH side will be sealed and there will be a filling loop to replace the small amounts lost (i.e. cleaning the magnetite filter).  An old system (or a new boiler on an old system) will have a small cistern in the loft.  This is exposed to the air so will lose water over time.  This tank will have a ball !!!!!! so it will replace the lost water automatically.

Modern boilers should be ok with softened water on CH side but best to check.  At one time they all said use hard water just to CYA.  I believe BS has stopped that now and say that instructions should say softened water is ok, unless there really is a good reason not to use it.

Hi malc_b,

Thanks so much for this - it has helped in some way for me to understand a few things but still lots to learn! We have no tank/cistern at all in the loft.

What harm can soft water do to the CH pipes & radiators then assuming my new boiler can handle the soft water?

If say one uses soft water in the CH system, then does one still need to use inhibitors like Adey MC1+, Fermox F1, Sentinel X100 or are they now made redundant & not needed? I am assuming that with no limescale in the CH system due to soft water being used, then all the metallic gunk will simply be captured by the Magnaclean Filter fitted?

Without calling the Installer in again (& getting charged - he was expensive!) is there any way I can check if he has installed the WS with hard or soft water going into the CH system?

One of my pet hates was my kettles always scaling up crazy but as the Kitchen tap is still on hard water - sadly it still does despite having an expensive & fancy WS!!

Many Thanks!

malc_b

Radiators are made of steel so they rust.  This produces black "rust", the magnetite the magnetite filter removes.  Inhibitor stops the radiators rusting.  BTW the "air" in radiators is actually hydrogen from rusting, AFAIR, unless you are filling the system of course.  Soft water is no problem to radiators or pipework.  AFAIR the issue in the lower ph of softwater and that some boiler have (or had) aluminium heat exchangers (on CH side) which didn't like the lower ph.

The water softener should have bypass taps so you can turn off the pipes to the softener and turn on a link between the two sides.  This is so you can take the softener out to repair it and still have water to all the taps in the house.  You should be able to turn off the softener but not turn on the bypass.  This will cut off the softened side (so check with a sink tap you have done this).  If the filling loop still has water (at high pressure) then it must be on the hard water side.  If it just draining the water in the pipes and then stops it is on the soft side.

As for the kettle just consider that hard water is better for your heart and arteries.

bazzie

malc_b said:

Radiators are made of steel so they rust.  This produces black "rust", the magnetite the magnetite filter removes.  Inhibitor stops the radiators rusting.  BTW the "air" in radiators is actually hydrogen from rusting, AFAIR, unless you are filling the system of course.  Soft water is no problem to radiators or pipework.  AFAIR the issue in the lower ph of softwater and that some boiler have (or had) aluminium heat exchangers (on CH side) which didn't like the lower ph.

The water softener should have bypass taps so you can turn off the pipes to the softener and turn on a link between the two sides.  This is so you can take the softener out to repair it and still have water to all the taps in the house.  You should be able to turn off the softener but not turn on the bypass.  This will cut off the softened side (so check with a sink tap you have done this).  If the filling loop still has water (at high pressure) then it must be on the hard water side.  If it just draining the water in the pipes and then stops it is on the soft side.

As for the kettle just consider that hard water is better for your heart and arteries.

Hi malc_b,

My system is quite a complicated boiler & I only just had it serviced so I think I will wait for my Installer to get back from his vacation & then ask him as to what he did in case I mess things up! 

Ironically, Viessmann highly recommend using a WS with their boilers afaik & my new Installer knows Viessmann inside out as he used to work for them so hopefully he will put me/things straight.

Many Thanks!

jsinc

Follow up - Monarch Midi fitted for a couple of weeks and works well. The softened water tastes plasticky but that may just be because it's new as drink softened water at friend's house (think it's the Atlantis model) and that's fine. Cost was £940 inc vat - £725 for Materials (softener, 3-way tap, pipe work bits and bobs, 25kg salt) +  £215 labour. In the south east.

Follow up 2 - The plasticky taste disappeared after a few weeks, so think it was the new softener and parts not the softened water. We drink from both.

csgohan4

bujsinc said:

Follow up - Monarch Midi fitted for a couple of weeks and works well. The softened water tastes plasticky but that may just be because it's new as drink softened water at friend's house (think it's the Atlantis model) and that's fine. Cost was £940 inc vat - £725 for Materials (softener, 3-way tap, pipe work bits and bobs, 25kg salt) +  £215 labour. In the south east.

£215 bit steep but is area dependent,  mine charged £100 plus vat and included materirals

Still cheaper than getting a harvey company which charges 1k upwards