Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing home fees

pollypenny

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

To clarify - a point that is obvious to me...but maybe not to some others is that my parents money is THEIR money and its entirely up to them to use it as they see fit for themselves and if it was THEIR decision to go into a home then I would understand that. I know them well enough to know they would have no more intention of going in one than I would though - ie zilch intention. In their case they would only go in if they literally saw no other option. In my case I wouldn't go into one myself ever no matter what.

I do see my parents' point though that, with the fact my father spent many years doing what the State wants some people to do (ie being in the Armed Forces to serve said State) and getting various very severe health problems because of it - that the State accepting he (and his wife - my mother) have "paid enough dues" to deserve compensation for the health problems he would not have had of himself.

He was good enough to get ill/take the risk of getting killed for the sake of the State (and would have left my mother a widow and her children fatherless) - so...yep...the State owes him (even though I don't agree with the job he had - and nor, incidentally, does he any longer....).

A strange argument. Your father fought in the war? Guess what: he wasn't alone. If he was in the forces after the war, again he wasn't alone.

Many others worked in heavy industries deemed vital to the country's prosperity. My own father was trapped under a fall in a pit, breaking every bone on his left side. An year later an uncle was killed in the same circumstances.

I hope your parents and you never need care, but you never know. My father paid for his own care after my mother died. If either OH or I need care we will pay for it. I don't expect you to pay for me.

hostertlady

we( mum) have been self funding my mums care as she was over the threshold for getting a bit of help...

at first it sort of annoyed me that we had to spend a fair whack of mum's savings on her care , my late father, also served in the army as did many people, and all his pension was going into paying towards mums care, my mums state pension was paying towards her care , my mum worked until she had children, never claimed a penny off the state etc but lots of people have had terrible jobs over the years, mining, construction, etc etc.. all manual work putting tremendous strain on their bodies and often not getting the correct payment or compensation when things went wrong, so many people have had terrible lives , and I did feel a bit annoyed at first but then I started to hear stories about people trying to avoid their money being used to pay for their care and THAT annoyed me even more!

Errata

Guess what: he wasn't alone.

True and some blokes like my stepdad spent almost 4 years in a POW camp and couldn't fight. Of course, those whose health was ruined in some way by their employment in the services can apply for a War Pension.
My stepdad paid 9k for his house and sold it when he moved into residential care for £119k. His response to that was "great stuff - free money!" and thought it responsible, normal and acceptable to use it to pay his care home fees.
He didn't understand that the tax he paid on the interest was used to fund other people's care who'd finagled and legally, but not morally, shifted their assets so the gov couldn't get its hands on them.

Falcona_2

I can see why people don't want to sell their houses that they worked all their lives for when they were told way back in 1948 that their NI would pay for their care from cradle to grave - they weren't the actual words used of course but that was how the information was received by many. that said I find myself in a very different position.

I care for my Mum she is 93 with mixed dementia and additional age related conditions and I care for her 24/7. I am also her POA (full). I am 62 and I fear losing the house having sold my flat to come and take care of her. I lost a lot of equity when I did so (bought at peak sold at slump and the remainder has gone on various items for the house and no I didn't think to keep records but I paid to have a new bathroom kitchen roof boiler when I came here so I knew we were well set up. the rest has gone over 5 years supporting myself including running the car which I do for my mum - I never go out without her except for maybe 3 weekends a year

Carers allowance is 61.25 so I do receive benefit - I would like to feel grateful but I don't let me explain why. If I want a carer to come in and shower Mum they charge 18.00 an hour....I actually log my care I do 60+ hours EVERY week. they take an hour and a half to do the job, don't do it as well as I do - Mum's words not mine and leave the bathroom a bit like a bomb site.... they also take twice (yes twice) the time I do.

Respite care is about 350 a week so I get one week a year and I pay for it because Mum refuses to and doesn't see why I need the break. yes theoretically I could pay for it out of her money because it IS acting in her best interests but the guilt is just too much so it comes out of what I have left

Mum doesn't want to go into care and I promised my late father she wouldn't. now we have to move to a bungalow to manage her future care.

Additionally if she were to pay ME to care for her I would lose the benefit I do get - it is just a lose lose lose lose lose

:sad:Can I have my name put on the deeds to safeguard the house and so if she needs end of life care I am not made homeless which is what the social workers keep telling me WILL happen.:sad:

It saddens me that by doing this job for 5 years I have saved a spend of probably half the value of the house yet I will lose what is now my home in fact everything after working and paying taxes all my life all because I decided to caregive for my mum.

Savvy_Sue

Falcona wrote: »

Respite care is about 350 a week so I get one week a year and I pay for it because Mum refuses to and doesn't see why I need the break. yes theoretically I could pay for it out of her money because it IS acting in her best interests but the guilt is just too much so it comes out of what I have left

sorry, but your mum has dementia. If nothing else, that indicates to me that her reasoning processes are faulty. PLEASE don't let her guilt you into situations which are going to damage your health.

Falcona wrote: »

:sad:Can I have my name put on the deeds to safeguard the house and so if she needs end of life care I am not made homeless which is what the social workers keep telling me WILL happen.:sad:

I believe the social workers who have told you this are speaking out of their derrieres. You are over 60, and living with your mother, so my understanding is that you can carry on living there.

I'd get some advice from Age UK or Independent Age especially on what you can and can't do with the Power of Attorney.

lessonlearned

You are protected by law, your mothers home cannot be used to fund her care because you are Over 60 and it is your permanent residence, even though you are not named in the title deeds.

This is known as a Mandatory Disregard.

Take a look at the Age UK website, they can explain it better than I can.

And yes you are entitled to some breaks, you really shouldn't feel guilty and you shouldn't be Funding this from what little money you have. Your mum probably doesn't really understand the full impact of her refusal to fund this. The dementia will have affected her judgement. I cannot think that were she fully compus mentis that she would want to see you struggle like this.

As for that promise you made to your father, you may find that as your mothers condition worsens you have no alternative. You will not be able to provide adequate care singlehandedly 24/7 - no one can. so if the time comes when you have to admit defeat, please don't torture yourself if you have to break that promise. Your father could not have foreseen what lay ahead and I doubt that he would expect you to continue indefinitely.

You have already done more than your fair share. You have fulfilled your obligations.

Don't ruin your own health and destroy your own retirement prospects.

Your parents would surely not want that for you.

HarperB

I have been looking at these issues intently since posting my own query about what happens to carers as they grow older and look at the possibility of the cared-for needing long term residential care. It is still a mystery to me.
As far as trying to avoid "losing the house" (the original point of this thread), you have to think of "using" the house that the cared-for worked for in order to pay for accommodation that suits them better if thats what they need.
The, yes, like me, you will wonder about your own prospects...where would I live and what chance of residential care would I have if I need it? There is this bit about the property not being taken into account if, like me, you are over 60, its your only residence and you've lived there for ages before the care question ever came up, but it may also be possible for the LA to put a charge on the house so that no-one would inherit it from me (too far ahead to worry about that one!!).
Its the "care" issue that's the main point. I share my mum's care with my girlfriend who works erratic and long hours as an HCA then comes back to assist my mum with female support, personal stuff and all the professional advice mum could need. My mum gets a brilliant standard of care and we feel its our responsibility to do this...while we can. My girlfriend is very clear that there may be a point where we cannot manage alone. Mum has dementia and some sensory problems but, at 87, there could be some other health issues around the corner. Girlfriend is also very clear that, by focussing on the dementia (which is where the LA are going), the slant is towards social residential care and not nursing need. Although dementia is a disease in itself, it somehow gets lost in the misbelief that it isn't a mental illness. Gurlfriend reminds me that she periodically nags for health assessments and keeps the records she does in case we go down the CHC route for funded nursing care. This, like all NHS treatment, is free at the point of delivery but often overlooked.
She also bangs on about carers needing to look after themselves properly...we might have a lousy social life and not take our own advice...but we have the right to a Carers Assessment and that gives access to respite, time out for personal interests and ither practical support services. As girlfriend and the local Age Concern group pointed out rather wryly, this is funded through the LA which, in our case, closed all its residential care homes to find the money to meet needs under the new Care Act.
As I said before, this is all much of a mysetry to me.....

Savvy_Sue

HarperB wrote: »

As far as trying to avoid "losing the house" (the original point of this thread), you have to think of "using" the house that the cared-for worked for in order to pay for accommodation that suits them better if thats what they need.

Very well put Harper.


All those 'promises' about not putting people into a home - you need to do what's best for the person who can't take care of themselves, AND the person doing the caring. Killing yourself by caring does no-one any favours.

Nick_de_Naeyer

I dont want to bring it further into a political discussion but I disagree with the attitude that by not using our property to pay for care, that we are not living off the next generation.
We have already paid for these services by our tax and national insurance. We have also paid tax on the money we have saved to pay for our homes.
For the government to turn round and say the 'insurance' you paid for now doesnt cover your care, is downright dishonest. Also, to make us think we are abusing the system by claiming our rightful dues is astonishing brainwashing.

Doc_N

Nick_de_Naeyer wrote: »

I dont want to bring it further into a political discussion but I disagree with the attitude that by not using our property to pay for care, that we are not living off the next generation.
We have already paid for these services by our tax and national insurance. We have also paid tax on the money we have saved to pay for our homes.
For the government to turn round and say the 'insurance' you paid for now doesnt cover your care, is downright dishonest. Also, to make us think we are abusing the system by claiming our rightful dues is astonishing brainwashing.

I think you are mistaken, for a number of reasons, but primarily because your tax and National Insurance contributions did not actually provide you with insurance against the future. They went to pay for the people who were benefiting at that time. That's the way the system in the UK works - current contributions fund current 'claimants'.

Think about how little you actually paid in, and how much you'd be getting out now. The two sums are leagues apart.

The other key point is that the welfare state (NHS apart) was never intended to fund those who had assets. It was a safety net for those who had no savings. If people have large assets in the shape of houses (and I count myself and my parents in this) there is no reason at all why those assets shouldn't be used to fund care home fees (and again I specifically exclude genuine NHS-funded health requirements).

Parents like to leave assets for their children/grandchildren, and they obviously like to inherit. But if the state is picking up the tab for the cost of care home fees it's effectively subsidising those who want to inherit at the expense of everyone else.