Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing home fees

Savvy_Sue

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

I can see all sides on this issue - though my own pov personally is that surely no-one would go into a home of any description (nursing/care/whatever) if their health was good enough to continue living in their own home? That being the case then that means that what they are in receipt of is medical care and the NHS (or other State body) is due to pay for peoples medical care. Its not the case, with the vast majority of people any rate, that they have chosen an "alternative living arrangement". More that they have been forced into a position where that is the only way their healthcare needs are going to be met.

You're entitled to your pov, but I think some people choose to go into a residential home because they're just tired of the effort involved, and lonely too.

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

The point is, not everyone in a home needs NURSING care, as in medical care. Some need help with dressing, eating, drinking, toileting, or can't be left alone; this can't be catered for in their own home, so they have to go into care. These are the people who will have to self-fund if they have the assets as it is not considered to be nursing care. Those who need what is considered to be genuine nursing care will not have to pay.

Exactly, although the definition of nursing care isn't always as broad as you'd hope ...

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

I guess I should have phrased it a bit better - but if there is any aspect of "dressing, eating, drinking, toileting" that people couldn't manage it would be purely and simply because of having health problems that prevent them doing them for themselves as normal.

We all manage these things fine if we don't have health problems - so its another level of nursing care (if not one involving giving them injections/operations/etc).

As above, not necessarily. I know a lady who lost her sight in later life and decided to go into a home. She probably could have stayed put and learned how to live with blindness, but I guess decided that at an advanced age, it was just one thing too many, especially while living alone.

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

It is worrying that my parents (very ordinary) little home has been at risk of vanishing into the State's maws since some point in the 1980s (think that was when all this "grab a home to cover care fees" thing started???) and just having to cross fingers and hope it doesn't come to it - and I know my parents would be upset at the thought of their money getting grabbed by the State if it did. Actually, it would feel very unjust too - as much of my fathers ill health has come from the State (ie having been made ill by being in the Armed Forces for many years) and I believe much of my mothers ill health has come as a knock-on effect of that as well. So, though I disagree with all that, they are owed by the State as payment for having been "cannon fodder" on its behalf.....

So it's OK for those of a similar age to your parents who don't need residential care to help pick up the bill for your parents because you don't want their house to be sold? Or OK for me, whose parents are likely a similar age to yours and had similar experiences, to pick up the bill for your parents? And OK for your parents to 'enjoy' whatever care the state will pay for just so you can inherit their house?

There is no 'grabbing' of houses. If one of a couple needs care and the other is still living at home, the house is disregarded. If the survivor of two or both need residential care, then they don't need another home. But no-one forces the sale of that home except in newspaper headlines.

And I've always felt that I'd far rather my parents - and me in my turn! - had the best of residential care, even if it took every penny of the value of any house no longer needed. I do not wish to rely on the state for that.

hostertlady

[[quote:
Originally Posted by savvy_sue:
So it's OK for those of a similar age to your parents who don't need residential care to help pick up the bill for your parents because you don't want their house to be sold? Or OK for me, whose parents are likely a similar age to yours and had similar experiences, to pick up the bill for your parents? And OK for your parents to 'enjoy' whatever care the state will pay for just so you can inherit their house?

There is no 'grabbing' of houses. If one of a couple needs care and the other is still living at home, the house is disregarded. If the survivor of two or both need residential care, then they don't need another home. But no-one forces the sale of that home except in newspaper headlines.

And I've always felt that I'd far rather my parents - and me in my turn! - had the best of residential care, even if it took every penny of the value of any house no longer needed. I do not wish to rely on the state for that.]]]]

^^^^^^^^
(sorry I don't know how to do the quote box thing....)
yes I agree,my mum is in a residential care home as she couldn't manage where she used to live. she is self funding as she has money over the threshold of the limit before SS will help her,
she didn't have a lot of money, and slowly it has decreased down to the basic allowance allowed where we live but you know what? we, as a family don't care about the money at all! as long as mum is receiving the care and support that she needs , we can have a bit of freedom to go about our lives knowing that mum is fine in the care home...
and by the way, before anyone jumps down my throat, I visit her 4 times a week and have a cuppa, I also take her out twice a week, but I could not have my mum live with me! some might say i'm selfish but she can be very difficult. and I deserve a bit of a life......
x

Pollycat

hostertlady wrote: »

yes I agree,my mum is in a residential care home as she couldn't manage where she used to live. she is self funding as she has money over the threshold of the limit before SS will help her,
she didn't have a lot of money, and slowly it has decreased down to the basic allowance allowed where we live but you know what? we, as a family don't care about the money at all! as long as mum is receiving the care and support that she needs , we can have a bit of freedom to go about our lives knowing that mum is fine in the care home...
and by the way, before anyone jumps down my throat, I visit her 4 times a week and have a cuppa, I also take her out twice a week, but I could not have my mum live with me! some might say i'm selfish but she can be very difficult. and I deserve a bit of a life......
x

Well done. :T

I don't think anyone would jump down your throat, I think your attitude is as mine would be.
I don't see any selfishness at all.

hostertlady

Pollycat wrote: »

Well done. :T

I don't think anyone would jump down your throat, I think your attitude is as mine would be.
I don't see any selfishness at all.

aww thanks pollycat..
I am just being honest
xx

phoebe1989seb

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

Those who need what is considered to be genuine nursing care will not have to pay.

Not true

Both my parents had severe dementia - one had vascular, the other Alzheimer's - and had to go into a nursing home in 2012. We sold their house to fund their care as the local authority refused to pay, as despite having pensions and some assets, this was not enough to cover the cost of two sets of fees.

All that they received from the local authority was the nursing element (£108 per week iirc) and this went direct to the nursing home on top of the fees paid by us from their assets.

By the time they passed away (both within the last twelve months), all but around £70k of their money had gone on fees.....

I'm not bitter as I was not due to inherit anyway, but do feel the standard of care received in relation to the level of fees paid was not up to scratch and that the severity of their condition should have easily warranted their care being provided free of charge by the NHS :mad:

seven-day-weekend

phoebe1989seb wrote: »

Not true

Both my parents had severe dementia - one had vascular, the other Alzheimer's - and had to go into a nursing home in 2012. We sold their house to fund their care as the local authority refused to pay, as despite having pensions and some assets, this was not enough to cover the cost of two sets of fees.

All that they received from the local authority was the nursing element (£108 per week iirc) and this went direct to the nursing home on top of the fees paid by us from their assets.

By the time they passed away (both within the last twelve months), all but around £70k of their money had gone on fees.....

I'm not bitter as I was not due to inherit anyway, but do feel the standard of care received in relation to the level of fees paid was not up to scratch and that the severity of their condition should have easily warranted their care being provided free of charge by the NHS :mad:

Yes, unfortunately people with dementia are not classed as needing nursing care, my sister had to pay too, she had early onset Alzheimers.

phoebe1989seb

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

Yes, unfortunately people with dementia are not classed as needing nursing care, my sister had to pay too, she had early onset Alzheimers.

Sorry to hear that sdw

What I don't get is that ordinary *care* or *residential* homes won't take these people - I know, my mum was in one for respite care, a lovely place, but we were told we would be expected to 'move her on' when her condition worsened - so they have little choice but to go into a nursing home where they automatically qualify for the nursing element (paid to the home), yet are not deemed to require nursing care.....very confusing, eh?

My parents were assessed more than once for full funding (NHS Continuing Care) - although curiously not prior to being discharged from hospital, which I now think is a requirement - but failed to score highly enough (even though my mum lost 22% of her body weight and ate virtually nothing)......until my dad was literally at death's door (having suffered a series of strokes) at which point they finally awarded it, only for him to pass away within a couple of weeks. The nursing home declared him fit to run a marathon only the day before he died when in actual fact he was totally helpless, unable to walk, talk, eat or see and they had to hire agency staff to watch him 24/7.....

We are (reasonably) fit and able 40-something's working from home who would have willingly cared for one parent with dementia.....but we had three between us at once!

Doc_N

Aren't we all drifting a very long way from the original post which started this thread, which was:


Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing home fees


I'm afraid I'm not prepared to lose my only asset, my home, to pay nursing home fees so I'm considering putting it into a family trust with my children as the beneficiaries.

Does anyone have experience of this and the pitfalls?

We're already likely to lose my mother's home for this reason (her fees are £46,000 a year) and if there is a legal way of making sure our children inherit all we have worked so hard for over the years then we will take it.

The PCT / social services have been entirely ruthless in the way they have dealt with the family over my mother's case and although we did achieve full funding for her for a while it was quickly removed.

I'm going to be equally ruthless in preventing them from getting their hands on my hard earned cash.

moneyistooshorttomention

To clarify - a point that is obvious to me...but maybe not to some others is that my parents money is THEIR money and its entirely up to them to use it as they see fit for themselves and if it was THEIR decision to go into a home then I would understand that. I know them well enough to know they would have no more intention of going in one than I would though - ie zilch intention. In their case they would only go in if they literally saw no other option. In my case I wouldn't go into one myself ever no matter what.

I do see my parents' point though that, with the fact my father spent many years doing what the State wants some people to do (ie being in the Armed Forces to serve said State) and getting various very severe health problems because of it - that the State accepting he (and his wife - my mother) have "paid enough dues" to deserve compensation for the health problems he would not have had of himself.

He was good enough to get ill/take the risk of getting killed for the sake of the State (and would have left my mother a widow and her children fatherless) - so...yep...the State owes him (even though I don't agree with the job he had - and nor, incidentally, does he any longer....).

hostertlady

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

To clarify - a point that is obvious to me...but maybe not to some others is that my parents money is THEIR money and its entirely up to them to use it as they see fit for themselves and if it was THEIR decision to go into a home then I would understand that. I know them well enough to know they would have no more intention of going in one than I would though - ie zilch intention. In their case they would only go in if they literally saw no other option. In my case I wouldn't go into one myself ever no matter what.
.

but how do you know that? none of us know what is around the corner..my mum would never ever have thought she would end up in a care home and me and me sister swore that mum would never ever go into one but sometimes the decision is taken out of our hands and circumstances ( and fate) take the decision away from us.....