Putting home into family trust to avoid nursing home fees

margaretclare

Val75 wrote: »

Is there any free advice that anyone knows of of what is the best thing to do to protect our property? I am wondering about Age Concern.
Although I think this is not the right place, we are downloading forms for Power of Attorney whilst we are still thinking straight, 81 and 76!!

Doing Power of Attorney is a very good idea.

Age Concern is now AgeUK and they do have fact-sheets available. http://www.ageuk.org.uk/

ticktack_2

Val75 wrote: »

Is there any free advice that anyone knows of of what is the best thing to do to protect our property?

If you mean, the best thing to do to ensure that your property is not sold by the local authority to repay care fees, I think this question does not really have an answer. It's not permitted, to deprive oneself of capital in order to claim benefits and avoid repayment, so there is no certain answer as to how to do it. You can give your property away and hope the care will never be needed, or, if it is needed, hope that the LA won't seek recovery of the debt. But I don't think there is a way to do it with certainty.

I am wondering about Age Concern.
Although I think this is not the right place, we are downloading forms for Power of Attorney whilst we are still thinking straight, 81 and 76!!

That may be a good idea, for other reasons, but as I understand it, it won't change the fact that if care is paid for by the state they may be able to recover from your estate. I hope someone will correct me if I'm mistaken about that.

ticktack_2

Errata wrote: »

MC your experience is only that, your experience. Mine is very different to yours, and I would hate those reading this thread to feel that all care homes are like the ones you describe. They are not.

I'd be interested to hear about your experience, if you're willing to post about it? I know there are varying standards. But it does seem in the nature of a care home that commercial pressures tend to end up with everyone being fed, bathed, put to bed, etc, to fit in with shifts rather than personal preferences. It does sound grim, if that happens.

blossomhill_2

punchyuk wrote: »

Hopefully she has a few year left before she starts dribbling in her tea and I wouldn`t like the thought of her either having her savings dwindle away at over a monkey a week by being in a home or dying with money left in the bank that she could have enjoyed.

Have you considered how you would protect the money for Mum should it be needed for your own care home fees if you were to be the one dribbling into their tea and needing care before her - I am sure you wouldn't want to risk her being left without if it were to be used up on your old age - sorry if this has been covered but couldn't see it

punchyuk

margaretclare wrote: »

Isn't it usual to pay for hobbies, sports activities, motoring etc from income and not from savings?


While I take the point made by others, that it may be a good idea to suss out some care homes to see if you yourself would like to live there, I still think a fit woman who drives and plays a sport on a regular basis should not be thought of as being in need of a care home just yet. Even if she ends up being one of the minority who ultimately does need such a placement.

I apologise for my comment about the female solicitor. I did not intend any denigration of her gender - I am the last person to do such a thing. I am not convinced, however, from what I've heard in other quarters, that she has got this right.

I end with a quote from the female solicitor who handled my DH's last divorce: 'You only have to come and sit in this chair for a while at my desk and you'll see the very worst in human nature. Loving family members turn into ravening wolves when the mention of money, inheritance, rears its head'.

sky telly, travel to and from france, golf fees and the odd holiday definately cost more than their income. My mum's opinion, which I do share, is that she wants to carry on enjoying her life as best she can without being too silly with her money.
When my late father was around and when they had a business they worked hard and had the money to play hard. Now she is retired her income has obviously dropped and she has tried to cut her cloth accordingly ( she only has her hair and nails done once month instead of once a week ).
As for the care home visits, that has not entered her head.
She is all too aware that family and friends around her have been popping their clogs. She now has just two of her 12 brothers and sisters left. (she was the baby of thirteen)
Lets face it, as we all get older we seem to attend far more funerals than we do weddings and christenings
Moreover, her best friends husband has Alzheimers and is sadly beginning to go down hill, and that has put the wind up her a bit. Life is for living as they say, I guess it is striking the balance between living for today but still hedging you bets that you might last longer than tomorrow.
What your solicitor mentioned about people and inheritence is spot on. I have seen it first hand on more than one occasion about people who you dont see for months or years even coming out the woodwork with their handout when someone passes away.
I know I might appear doom and gloom but I'm quite a positive fella on the whole

punchyuk

blossomhill wrote: »

Have you considered how you would protect the money for Mum should it be needed for your own care home fees if you were to be the one dribbling into their tea and needing care before her - I am sure you wouldn't want to risk her being left without if it were to be used up on your old age - sorry if this has been covered but couldn't see it

That is a very good point which I honestly never thought about. I am glad you bought that up.
Obviously the chances are slim but you can never say never. It is definately something my fiancee and I will have to discuss with my mum.

punchyuk

margaretclare wrote: »

About care homes, I can speak a bit about these from experience. In what I've come to call the 'black years' of my life, between widowhood and redundancy in 1992 and meeting DH in 1997, I did a lot of agency work doing shifts in some of these. I didn't want to, but my priority was in paying the mortgage and keeping a roof over my head.

From the point of view of the resident, you are just not free. That's the worst of it. You have left your freedom at the front door. You have no choice as to when you get up, when you go to bed, when you have meals and what you're given to eat at those meals. You either stay in your own room all the time or you sit in a communal lounge with TV on all the time. You don't have a choice over what to watch on TV - it's treated as 'babysitting'.

Many times doing night shifts I asked the question of others who were on duty 'Why do we have to start getting them up so early?' Usually, at 5 am we would go round and start dragging residents out of bed, even if they were sound asleep, giving them a quick lick with a damp flannel, dressing them while they were sitting on a commode and then wheeling them out to the dining-area to sit in a wheelchair in front of the TV until breakfast. Often they would grumble and object: 'Oh, Ada/Ivy/Mabel is in a bad mood today'. I said that I wouldn't want to be dragged out of bed at an ungodly hour either, after a lifetime of having to get up early and out of the house to go to work. I was told 'We have to get a certain number of them up before the day staff come on, if we don't the day staff will grumble'. This was true - in another home I was ticked off for 'not getting enough of them up'. The care assistant who told me this said he used to pick people up bodily out of bed and do all this. He was half my age and twice my size, a bit like an all-in wrestler and he expected me to do likewise!

At the other end of the day, it was usual to start putting people to bed in the early evening, after the last meal of the day which was about 5 pm.

There used to be a woman who came to our church from one of these care homes, obviously she was brought by a relative and could go out with her family. She always used to leave before the last hymn. I asked why this was: 'oh Sunday dinner is at midday and if she doesn't get back then she wouldn't get anything to eat'. I've also been in care homes where there was a 'mission statement' framed and hanging on the wall in the foyer: 'This is our residents' home and they can do exactly as they would do in their own home'. Really? When meal-times, bedtimes, getting-up times and everything else is decided for them?

You can see that I personally - although possibly reaching the age at which I might be 'dribbling into my tea' - have not made any provision for this fate-worse-than-death for myself.

That is a very thought provoking post.
My fiancee worked for essex trust and what you highlight is the very reason she left and is now working one to one with a lady. She explained to me that the impersonal way some of the "guests" were treated was at times very distasteful

Savvy_Sue

Pollycat wrote: »

Ask yourself:
Would you want to live there?

I think that's the best question to ask when looking round a care home, although you do have to bear in mind that one person's care home heaven would be another person's care home hell ...

Some people, for example, LIKE having meals at set times.

Val75 wrote: »

Just had a talk from a law firm at our over fifties club, re tenants in common,apparently as someone has already said on here only half the house can be taken , we have one son, we thought we could put him on tenants in common ie we would be one third each.

That seemed not possible??

You probably need 'proper' advice on your personal situation. However, I suspect that just putting the house into 1/3 shares without any money changing hands could be seen as Deprivation of Capital if the LA were so minded and it seemed that your INTENTION in doing this was indeed to minimise assets to avoid paying care home fees.

Val75 wrote: »

The other is Transfer of Equity, sons name on deeds?? or a Trust which on here seems not a good idea.

It needs careful thought: a lot of thought about the 'what ifs'. And those what ifs need to cover any potential change in the CHILD's situation as well as in the PARENT's situation.

Bottom line: if the assets are shared with or passed over to an adult child, then any change in the adult child's situation means that their assets include those which may technically be regarded as the parent's. Divorce, disability, long term sickness, unemployment - is there a household in the land which can honestly say "it won't happen to me" in relation to the above?

Not to say that Trusts, Transfers of Equity, adding to deeds are not appropriate. Just that advice is needed for each situation.

Val75 wrote: »

We were told this would mean no nursing home fees.

See below for why that may or may not be a good thing ...

Val75 wrote: »

I fully agree with all those that say we have worked hard all our lives, paid our taxes, just have the old age pension, and small company pension which we also paid into, which takes us just over any help we could get, but still very small income, own our own home, worked for it , and the scroungers get it all for nothing.,

Seems so unfair.

get all what for nothing? Get no choice, get what the LA is prepared to pay for? Pardon me, but I'd rather lose 'it' all, if it means I retain some choice, some autonomy.

Money isn't everything, but even a small amount of it certainly helps in a number of situations. Take education, for example: if you're prepared to pay for transport, your children can benefit from a better education than if you're reliant on taking whatever the LA offers. Did the scroungers get that choice? generally not.

blossomhill wrote: »

Have you considered how you would protect the money for Mum should it be needed for your own care home fees if you were to be the one dribbling into their tea and needing care before her - I am sure you wouldn't want to risk her being left without if it were to be used up on your old age - sorry if this has been covered but couldn't see it

And this is SO important!

Savvy_Sue

May I just quietly object to the idea that this is a pensioner's forum.

Everyone is welcome here, no-one needs to show a birth certificate, and some of us who are still in our fifties don't expect to be drawing a pension any time soon.

The issues we are discussing here arouse strong feelings, but there are both parents and adult children who do not wish to see the 'inheritance' go on care home fees. I may disagree with their reasoning, I may not like their posting style, but remember the Forum Etiquette - and the first part of the following is on every page!

Please be nice to all MoneySavers : There's no such thing as a stupid question and, even if you disagree, courtesy helps.

PasturesNew

margaretclare wrote: »

...You have no choice as to when you get up, when you go to bed, when you have meals and what you're given to eat at those meals. You either stay in your own room all the time or you sit in a communal lounge with TV on all the time. You don't have a choice over what to watch on TV - it's treated as 'babysitting'.

My parent is in one - they choose when/if they get up. They can have their meals in their room or in the food room, the meals are better than they'd be eating at home - more varied and cooked to a better quality than a random carer nuking a chilled dinner badly.

My parent stays in their own room - but once they leave it there are people - there are no people at their home, so they'd just be lonely, with nobody to spot if they fell or needed help.

Where my parent is, there are 5-6 lounges, some with a telly, some without. They also have a telly in their room.

They can wander around the place safely, choose to speak to people, have people available, have great food, everything works (no maintenance) and no dodgy characters knocking on the door (I'm in their house right now and had a strange young man at the door earlier this evening).

margaretclare wrote: »

Many times doing night shifts I asked the question of others who were on duty 'Why do we have to start getting them up so early?' Usually, at 5 am we would go round and start dragging residents out of bed, even if they were sound asleep, giving them a quick lick with a damp flannel, dressing them while they were sitting on a commode and then wheeling them out to the dining-area to sit in a wheelchair in front of the TV until breakfast. Often they would grumble and object: 'Oh, Ada/Ivy/Mabel is in a bad mood today'. I said that I wouldn't want to be dragged out of bed at an ungodly hour either, after a lifetime of having to get up early and out of the house to go to work. I was told 'We have to get a certain number of them up before the day staff come on, if we don't the day staff will grumble'. This was true - in another home I was ticked off for 'not getting enough of them up'. The care assistant who told me this said he used to pick people up bodily out of bed and do all this. He was half my age and twice my size, a bit like an all-in wrestler and he expected me to do likewise!

Sounds like the home's at fault, not homes.

margaretclare wrote: »

At the other end of the day, it was usual to start putting people to bed in the early evening, after the last meal of the day which was about 5 pm.

My parent isn't put to bed - and is often up at midnight chatting to people and drinking tea.

margaretclare wrote: »

There used to be a woman who came to our church from one of these care homes, obviously she was brought by a relative and could go out with her family. She always used to leave before the last hymn. I asked why this was: 'oh Sunday dinner is at midday and if she doesn't get back then she wouldn't get anything to eat'.

Although Sunday dinner's at lunchtime where my parent is, the rest of the days it's soup, sandwiches and cake the other days, so people don't miss out on their main meal if they go out - they are off to an appointment next week at lunchtime and they'll be served their lunch when they get back, it's no problem for the staff/chef.

I can also randomly drop by at mealtimes and join my parent for lunch - in the food room, or in their room. They like notice, but I'd not be refused.

margaretclare wrote: »

I've also been in care homes where there was a 'mission statement' framed and hanging on the wall in the foyer: 'This is our residents' home and they can do exactly as they would do in their own home'. Really? When meal-times, bedtimes, getting-up times and everything else is decided for them?

You can see that I personally - although possibly reaching the age at which I might be 'dribbling into my tea' - have not made any provision for this fate-worse-than-death for myself.

Most people go into a home when it's safer for them to do so than living alone, it's rarely a lifestyle choice else they'd be in their own home with carers.