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Invoiced without order? Is this allowed?
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nry_2
Posts: 41 Forumite
I had reason to visit a local metal fabricators back in June 2011.
I was looking at options to get a custom part made for a car engine and this was one of my final research trips to get rough pricing on what I may have to spend. I had an idea of a budget and already had a price from another supplier but wanted to see what someone local could offer.
I telephoned the company and they suggested I come down and speak to them in person with another engine part onto which this custom one would fit - this would allow them to get a better idea of what I was looking for.
I visited and spent around 30 minutes talking to two men in the workshops - one of whom I had spoken to on the phone previously. We discussed possible fabrication methods and settled on one option being the easiest - they were unable to say how long it would take to make so were unable to say how much it would cost for the part to be made up (I wanted 4 at the end of it all). They offered to make up a quick sample using scrap aluminium and some spare machine time they had - this was to allow them to know how long a final peice may take and therefore they could provide me with a quote on getting these parts made up. I verbally confirmed that this would have no cost associated with it - they agreed this and said they'd call me once the sample was complete. I left my work business card at this stage as it had my mobile number on - they did not ask for any contact details, I nearly just left my mobile number written on a scrap of paper.
A week later I got a call and went to look at the sample - it was slightly incorrect but had potential - I left the sample at their premises, I had no use for it. The person I needed to speak to about the price was on holiday so I called back on their return to be told the final parts would cost £75+VAT each which they agreed would make it financially unviable so we left it at that.
A few weeks later I recieved an invoice for the part which I was confused about. After ringing the company and explaining the above I was told that the managing director felt it was a chargeable bit of work hence the invoice - they said they would pass on my comments and get back to me. They did not return the call so I assumed the MD had agreed and dropped the invoice.
In November 2011 I recieved a further invoice stating 'Final demand - court action to be taken 18/11/11'. I again rang them up and was told that they felt payment was due therefore they would take action if I did not pay. After a little discussion they offered to accept £50 however as the initial verbal discussion was that the sample was FOC in free time/scrap material I refused this offer.
A further letter was recieved last week with a copy of an unsubmitted Money Claim Online claim stating that this would be submitted if no payment was recieved. The company refuse to accept my home address stating that they have my work address on file and that is what they will use even though this is a personal issue.
At this stage I contacted Consumer Direct who suggested I write to the company and request written/documentary evidence that an price was agreed and that an order was placed. I gave a response date and requested all future correspondence was sent to my supplied home address. This date has now passed - Consumer Direct say that at this stage I have no option but to see if they submit the claim and then defend my case. Trading Standards are unable to get involved due to this being a verbal agreement with basically their word against mine.
I know that at work, if we get an invoice for goods we did not order then we have no liability to pay - I have had need to return such goods for this reason even though the company in question was not happy.
At this stage I am unsure how things will progress - I have not spoken to the company in question since the date above has passed, but I am concerned that if they submit the claim online then any correspondence will be sent to work which is closed for 2.5 weeks over Christmas meaning I may miss the 14 day response deadline with Money Claim Online.
All in all a bit of a pain in the neck, I am at a loss how any company can invoice for something that was never ordered, but by all accounts they are within their rights to submit a claim to me for this money, I just don't quite know if they'll be likely to have the claim upheld or not? It's only for £90 + £25 court fees, however I really don't feel they have any right to request this payment, they should have followed their published company policy which lays out a foral written procedure for handling customer quotes/orders/invoices, something they have not followed with me.
Does common sense prevail in these situations or should I have taken more care to have the FOC sample aspect put in writing in the beginning?
I was looking at options to get a custom part made for a car engine and this was one of my final research trips to get rough pricing on what I may have to spend. I had an idea of a budget and already had a price from another supplier but wanted to see what someone local could offer.
I telephoned the company and they suggested I come down and speak to them in person with another engine part onto which this custom one would fit - this would allow them to get a better idea of what I was looking for.
I visited and spent around 30 minutes talking to two men in the workshops - one of whom I had spoken to on the phone previously. We discussed possible fabrication methods and settled on one option being the easiest - they were unable to say how long it would take to make so were unable to say how much it would cost for the part to be made up (I wanted 4 at the end of it all). They offered to make up a quick sample using scrap aluminium and some spare machine time they had - this was to allow them to know how long a final peice may take and therefore they could provide me with a quote on getting these parts made up. I verbally confirmed that this would have no cost associated with it - they agreed this and said they'd call me once the sample was complete. I left my work business card at this stage as it had my mobile number on - they did not ask for any contact details, I nearly just left my mobile number written on a scrap of paper.
A week later I got a call and went to look at the sample - it was slightly incorrect but had potential - I left the sample at their premises, I had no use for it. The person I needed to speak to about the price was on holiday so I called back on their return to be told the final parts would cost £75+VAT each which they agreed would make it financially unviable so we left it at that.
A few weeks later I recieved an invoice for the part which I was confused about. After ringing the company and explaining the above I was told that the managing director felt it was a chargeable bit of work hence the invoice - they said they would pass on my comments and get back to me. They did not return the call so I assumed the MD had agreed and dropped the invoice.
In November 2011 I recieved a further invoice stating 'Final demand - court action to be taken 18/11/11'. I again rang them up and was told that they felt payment was due therefore they would take action if I did not pay. After a little discussion they offered to accept £50 however as the initial verbal discussion was that the sample was FOC in free time/scrap material I refused this offer.
A further letter was recieved last week with a copy of an unsubmitted Money Claim Online claim stating that this would be submitted if no payment was recieved. The company refuse to accept my home address stating that they have my work address on file and that is what they will use even though this is a personal issue.
At this stage I contacted Consumer Direct who suggested I write to the company and request written/documentary evidence that an price was agreed and that an order was placed. I gave a response date and requested all future correspondence was sent to my supplied home address. This date has now passed - Consumer Direct say that at this stage I have no option but to see if they submit the claim and then defend my case. Trading Standards are unable to get involved due to this being a verbal agreement with basically their word against mine.
I know that at work, if we get an invoice for goods we did not order then we have no liability to pay - I have had need to return such goods for this reason even though the company in question was not happy.
At this stage I am unsure how things will progress - I have not spoken to the company in question since the date above has passed, but I am concerned that if they submit the claim online then any correspondence will be sent to work which is closed for 2.5 weeks over Christmas meaning I may miss the 14 day response deadline with Money Claim Online.
All in all a bit of a pain in the neck, I am at a loss how any company can invoice for something that was never ordered, but by all accounts they are within their rights to submit a claim to me for this money, I just don't quite know if they'll be likely to have the claim upheld or not? It's only for £90 + £25 court fees, however I really don't feel they have any right to request this payment, they should have followed their published company policy which lays out a foral written procedure for handling customer quotes/orders/invoices, something they have not followed with me.
Does common sense prevail in these situations or should I have taken more care to have the FOC sample aspect put in writing in the beginning?
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Comments
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Unless this is a very small company, and £90 is a lot to them, then they're unlikely to proceed any further and they're using this as a form of coercion. That said, they've probably already spent the equivalent of this "debt" in the cost of people's time to send invoices etc.0
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Time will tell - I actually suspect they'll submit the claim, but I may be wrong. When I tried to request they used my home address a few weeks ago they hung up the phone, nice practice
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If you have notified them in writing to use your home address and not your work address, and they continue unreasonably to use your work address then this could constitute harassment to obtain payment of a debt (not relevant whether actually owed or not) a criminal offence.
I'm guessing the police won't be interested (though it could be worth asking them), but it would certainly be interesting the judge if they do take it to court.
In respect of everything else it seems you have done everything you can. The important thing is that you have got your version down in writing. Wait and see. Good luck.0 -
If you have notified them in writing to use your home address and not your work address, and they continue unreasonably to use your work address then this could constitute harassment to obtain payment of a debt (not relevant whether actually owed or not) a criminal offence.
how would using his work address constitute harassment whereas using his home address wouldn't?
Infact if op claimed harassment having received just 2 or 3 letters I think a judge would laugh at him!nry wrote:Time will tell - I actually suspect they'll submit the claim, but I may be wrong. When I tried to request they used my home address a few weeks ago they hung up the phone, nice practice
I wouldn't take receiving a copy of the claim form to necessarily mean much tbh. I've sent them a few times and this practice usually gets results -- the times it didn't the debt just got written off as it was a very small amount! ANd know many others have also
But them knowing they offered it for free and not having any evidence you formed a contract doesn't really put them in a great position.0 -
If you have notified them in writing to use your home address and not your work address, and they continue unreasonably to use your work address then this could constitute harassment to obtain payment of a debt (not relevant whether actually owed or not) a criminal offence.
I'm guessing the police won't be interested (though it could be worth asking them), but it would certainly be interesting the judge if they do take it to court.
In respect of everything else it seems you have done everything you can. The important thing is that you have got your version down in writing. Wait and see. Good luck.
Not to mention a breach of the DPA which would be reportable to the ICO. But again, you'd need to have notified them in writing.You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0 -
unholyangel wrote: »Not to mention a breach of the DPA which would be reportable to the ICO. But again, you'd need to have notified them in writing.
good point, but would this still be applicable since the address they hold and are using is still accurate (as provided by op), just not ops preferred address..?0 -
Not something I wish to consider to be honest, but if they do submit the Money Claim Online form (which was threatened as per the attached un-submitted form) to my work address then that may be breaching the Administration of Justice Act 1970 in relation to contacting me at work when I have clearly tried to provide my personal address on one occasion and have provided it in recorded delivery letter on a second (which was accepted and signed for). The threat of submission in itself may be breach of legislation too but I'm unsure on that one.
The OFT guidelines on how to contact debtors is pretty clear to - again, I have provided my home address in writing now although they did refuse point blank (and hung up the phone) when I made this request verbally - this in itself is against the guidelines so far as I can tell.
It seems also to be unfair for the company to continue with recovery procedures now I have queried the debt - as such, I have requested from the company all details relating to the debt in writing as evidence of the quotation being accepted and an order being placed. At this time the OFT appear to consider it unfair for them to procede with the likes of Money Claim Online until this evidence has been provided to myself.
As above, I'm in limbo really until they do or do not respond to my previous letter. The response date has passed but I don't feel inclined to contact them again at this stage, if they have decided to drop the situation then it may not prove beneficial to initiate contact - however I also don't fancy spending Christmas wondering if they've submitted the claim online or written to me at work...0 -
How is it a breach of the DPA?0
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Not something I wish to consider to be honest, but if they do submit the Money Claim Online form (which was threatened as per the attached un-submitted form) to my work address then that may be breaching the Administration of Justice Act 1970 in relation to contacting me at work when I have clearly tried to provide my personal address on one occasion and have provided it in recorded delivery letter on a second (which was accepted and signed for). The threat of submission in itself may be breach of legislation too but I'm unsure on that one.
The OFT guidelines on how to contact debtors is pretty clear to - again, I have provided my home address in writing now although they did refuse point blank (and hung up the phone) when I made this request verbally - this in itself is against the guidelines so far as I can tell.
It seems also to be unfair for the company to continue with recovery procedures now I have queried the debt - as such, I have requested from the company all details relating to the debt in writing as evidence of the quotation being accepted and an order being placed. At this time the OFT appear to consider it unfair for them to procede with the likes of Money Claim Online until this evidence has been provided to myself.
As above, I'm in limbo really until they do or do not respond to my previous letter. The response date has passed but I don't feel inclined to contact them again at this stage, if they have decided to drop the situation then it may not prove beneficial to initiate contact - however I also don't fancy spending Christmas wondering if they've submitted the claim online or written to me at work...
The threat of submission isn't illegal at all. Infact its pre-court protocol. It's recommend a 'Letter before action' sent to a debtor before it is sent to the courts.
With regards to the address, I think where you fall down here is the fact your work address is what you gave them in the first place (as I assume this was on your business card). If it was a case of them having your home address then taking it up on themselves to contact you at work i'd agree, but thats not the case.
I think the DPA reference is that data stored on any persons must be accurate. In this case i'd argue it is compliant as it is infact the address you provided and a valid address that you can receive mail from.
I wouldn't spend xmas worrying about it tbh. Small claims can be a lenthy process, last time I made a claim, from claim to hearing took about 6 or 7 weeks. So is unlikely to be heard until Fed -- assuming they actually file.0 -
Threat of submission isn't illegal I agree however sending me a completed but unsubmitted print off from the MCO website is a touch more threatening in my opinion.
I know I left my card with them, if I could change one thing then it would be that - I'd have left a mobile number and had done with it, or even better say I'll ring them. They'd not have been able to send me anything without the card 0
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