Stopping on double yellow lines to pick someone up

JimmyTheWig

So my outstanding questions are...

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

Are there any signs that prevent you from stopping to pick people up?
Is there a time limit when picking someone up becomes something more? Obviously getting three children and a buggy into the car takes longer than an adult would getting into the car.

From the directgov link it seems the only places where you are not allowed to stop to pick someone up are a "red cross clearway", zig-zag lines and red routes. I'm pretty sure that it was none of those. So it looks like from point 1 I'm in the clear.

So I think it's just point 2. Did I take too long to pick them up? Does putting a buggy in the car count as loading rather than picking up a passenger?

Sirdan

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

So my outstanding questions are...


From the directgov link it seems the only places where you are not allowed to stop to pick someone up are a "red cross clearway", zig-zag lines and red routes. I'm pretty sure that it was none of those. So it looks like from point 1 I'm in the clear.

So I think it's just point 2. Did I take too long to pick them up? Does putting a buggy in the car count as loading rather than picking up a passenger?

Sorry I did not post clearly what I meant ...:o

I meant councils are complete s&&ts when it comes to this and as far as they are concerned putting even as much as a small bag of shopping in the vehicle or a buggy or anything else is loading ....still worth an appeal though.

They may be technically correct but often adjudicators can be persuaded by what the original intention of the legislation was ...clearly the intent was not that it would be permitted to pick up passengers except those who are in buggies or indeed wheelchairs !
But as already said pepipoo is the best place for this as I'm sure they will have dealt with the exact same thing before.

JimmyTheWig

So I might be on shaky ground if I put a bag of shopping from the buggy into the car? I may well have done this. Obviously if it was an adult who I was picking up then they would have been carrying the shopping themselves.

I'll be most miffed if I end up having to pay because I should have been in the loading bay. I deliberately didn't use that as (a) I wasn't loading, I was picking up passengers and (b) I would have been more in the way than where I did stop.

Is there any way to ask the council about the grounds of the charge before I appeal? Or is that a question for Pepipoo?

What's the deal with appealing? If I pay within 21 days then it's £55 rather than £110. Presumably the appeal will take longer than 21 days.
If I lose will I end up paying the £110?

TrickyWicky

Mojisola wrote: »

www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069860?CID=TAT&PLA=url_mon&CRE=highwaycode_parking

You MUST NOT wait or park on yellow lines during the times of operation shown on nearby time plates (or zone entry signs if in a Controlled Parking Zone) – see 'Information signs' and 'Road markings'. Double yellow lines indicate a prohibition of waiting at any time even if there are no upright signs. You MUST NOT wait or park, or stop to set down and pick up passengers, on school entrance markings (see 'Road markings') when upright signs indicate a prohibition of stopping.

No offence but thats not a helpful or factual answer.

1) No waiting isn't the same as allowing passengers to alight
2) The PCN is for a code 02 - loading restriction which has absolutely nothing to do with a school zig zag.

Mark_Hewitt wrote: »

Stopping on double yellows, to load / unload, pickup / setdown passengers is legal as far as I know.

Yes it is.

@ Op:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070563.pdf

Scroll to page 3 for loading restrictions and note where it says "You may stop while passengers board or alight."

If its a CCTV car they'll no doubt have some minor footage of this going on. Caution though, if you're seen standing there doing nothing (eg having a crafty fag) then you're not going to get off it as alighting is literally get in/out and move off with no hanging around. Due to various H&S issues the council would have a duty to let you get out and ensure your kids are safe (eg seatbelts etc) so you need to highlight this to them as many parking depts are just stupid and once the PCN has been issued they'll automatically assume that you're in the wrong.

You'd be surprised how many CEO's out there don't understand that letting passengers in / out is allowed.. and likewise you'd be surprised how many motorists think that they don't have to move straight away but can wait there for a few seconds and still call it picking up..

Mojisola

TrickyWicky wrote: »

No offence but thats not a helpful or factual answer.

1) No waiting isn't the same as allowing passengers to alight
2) The PCN is for a code 02 - loading restriction which has absolutely nothing to do with a school zig zag.

It might come down to interpretation. One man's "I was just picking up the children, putting the buggy and the shopping in the car" may be seen by the other side as "Parked while adults had a chat, stuff was loaded into car, etc".

It does seem very mean, especially as it's unlikely that Jimmy hung around having seen the cctv car across the road.

If it was a genuine case of getting the children in the car and driving away, I would want to fight the ticket.

Orford

London Borough of Southwark v Mrs D Wanambwa

Case Reference 2030235349 PCN SO75047775

DECISION
The wrong issue has been addressed in this case up to now. The facts are that the Appellant stopped to drop off her husband to go to the bank. Because he is a wheelchair user, she took his wheelchair out of the vehicle and took him into the bank. She returned within a short time to move the vehicle. The Appellant has thought of her taking out the wheelchair as unloading and has claimed the unloading exemption. The loading exemption does not apply at this location because loading is expressly prohibited. However, this is not an unloading case at all. The circumstances are squarely within the boarding/alighting exemption, which does apply even where loading is prohibited. It is understandable that the Appellant, as a lay person, focused on the wrong exemption. It is, however, very surprising that the Council did not recognise the circumstances for what they were. Had it done so, this matter should never have needed to get as far as an appeal. I allow this appeal.


Adjudicator Mr Martin Wood

This PATAS adjudicator's decision pretty much confirms your boarding/alighting exemption
Decision Allowed

JimmyTheWig

Mojisola wrote: »

It might come down to interpretation. One man's "I was just picking up the children, putting the buggy and the shopping in the car" may be seen by the other side as "Parked while adults had a chat, stuff was loaded into car, etc".

Great news, guys.

I decided to phone them to ask to view the footage that they had so I could decide for myself whether I thought there was anything more than picking the children up involved.

The guy on the phone watched the video and said that it was hard to say whether it was just sorting out the children and bits associated with that (e.g. putting buggy in car) or whether there was more to it than that.
He then went on to say that because it was a 50/50 call he'd give me the benefit of the doubt and cancel the ticket! I hadn't even asked him to!!

Many thanks for all your help.

Coupon-mad

Mojisola wrote: »

It might come down to interpretation. One man's "I was just picking up the children, putting the buggy and the shopping in the car" may be seen by the other side as "Parked while adults had a chat, stuff was loaded into car, etc".

It does seem very mean, especially as it's unlikely that Jimmy hung around having seen the cctv car across the road.

If it was a genuine case of getting the children in the car and driving away, I would want to fight the ticket.

Yes but there was footage taken by a camcera spy car so the OP can have a look at that. The PCN probably explains how, sometimes with a click of a mouse online.

TrickyWicky's reply and link explain that 'boarding/alighting' is allowed (and this was 'assisted boarding/alighting' (small children, as in this case, or infirm/disabled).

And why do people think you cannot stop on a double yellows at all? You can if you are disabled or have a disabled passenger who is not just sitting in the seat the whole time, if you display a Blue Badge and clock. Stay up to 3 hours but not in an obstructive place, obviously, like the corner of a junction.

You can also stop on double yellows - usually up to 20 minutes - to unload or load stuff (as long as there are no kerb blips as well as double yellows, if so check the hours of operation of the loading restriction that the kerb blips signify). Even collecting a postal packet counts as loading - it does not have to be a heavy item nor a goods vehicle.

I sometimes stop on double yellows when taking a bag of donations to a charity shop; that is allowed. But you could get a PCN if the CEO was an idiot or did not see you (would be appealable).

And as in this case you can stop briefly to let people board or alight.

If you get rejected then post a pic of the PCN and the rejection letter on a new thread on pepipoo and they will help you:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

By appealing you should get re-offered the discount (not that you should be paying) but if you have to take the appeal further the discount is no longer in play. Pepipoo will tell you how to appeal further if the Council play a game of bluff.

Coupon-mad

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

Great news, guys.

I decided to phone them to ask to view the footage that they had so I could decide for myself whether I thought there was anything more than picking the children up involved.

The guy on the phone watched the video and said that it was hard to say whether it was just sorting out the children and bits associated with that (e.g. putting buggy in car) or whether there was more to it than that.
He then went on to say that because it was a 50/50 call he'd give me the benefit of the doubt and cancel the ticket! I hadn't even asked him to!!

Many thanks for all your help.

Oooh, just seen this, well done!

Just watch out as you only did this over the phone which is not actually a way to appeal a PCN. Just wondering if the guy will actually cancel it. You will know if you hear any more about it, if he didn't.

Did you get his name? Keep a note of the conversation, name and date along with the PCN, safely just in case.

Orford

I agree with CM, don't rely on them keeping their word. Put in an informal appeal anyway - boarding/alighting exemption, mention the phonecall and ask them to confirm the PCN has been cancelled as promised.