landlord has key???

prudryden

franklee wrote:

Ah right, so you disagree with the information you posted



that clearly says a tenant must never change the locks without prior approval. Never doesn't really allow for any exceptions

I am glad we both agree these ladies are entitled to change the locks without permission and withold the new keys. I certainly would. They will have to face the wrath of the landlord but given his appalling behaviour that is bound to happen sooner or later anyway. I would also sue, once I'd complained, documented and reported the landlord's behaviour. A well respected member of llz says "Cost to landlord for damages of £10,000 is not unknown." in that post I linked to for a similar case.

I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with the post. If you will note, I posted the source, which is the URL link. The quote about never was not mine, it was copied and pasted from the Harrow.gov.uk web site. You should ask the government of that council what they meant.

prudryden

Frank-
Please read my post #30. What side do you think I am on?

silvercar

prudryden wrote:

I didn't say I agreed or disagreed with the post. If you will note, I posted the source, which is the URL link. The quote about never was not mine, it was copied and pasted from the Harrow.gov.uk web site. You should ask the government of that council what they meant.

I just wanted to say that I find it very helpful that you have been posting the sources of your information.:T

Georgecarol

picnic wrote:

im a carer for 2 disabled ladies (both early 20's) who rent a property, they have not had a new contract since 2005, despite repeated asking. the landlord and his partner both enter the property without notice or warning at any time day or night (once when one was in bed and the other was in the shower.) the landlord has now demanded they be in on friday so that they can discuse a missing payment. the ladies are sure they paid the month in question via a cheque and i have advised them to request a copy of said cheque from there bank, which of course takes time. the landlord has told them that they will go through there bank details when they arrive!!! i have to tread very carfuly as although i care (not just because im paid too) i dont like to overstep the mark..

any advise / help would be much appriciated. i dont like to see these ladies bullied this way. :mad:

Everyone's talking about the key issue, but what about the bank details issue:eek: There is no way that he is allowed to look at the bank details of anyone else. You didn't say what disability they have, if they are developmentally handicapped, then he can take that bank info and take them for everything they've got. It's extremely important that this is the main issue today and I hope someone is there to stop him doing this. I have visions of credit card bills and ccj's dancing in my head right now and how unfortunate for people who may not intellectually be able to defend themselves.:mad: :mad:

prudryden

No way do they need to allow him to see ANY personal papers. I would seriously advise against this for various reasons.

He can ask to see them at the beginning of the tenancy and then they can agree or not depending on how bad they want the lease.

Kaminari_2

deary65, i think you will find that the person on the land registery and the person paying the mortgage is the owner of the property. I don't know where you got the idea that a tenant owns a property. The tenant is paying for a service and that service is use of the property for however long the tenancy agreement is for. In the Tenancy agreement it states "quite enjoyment" of the property which means that while the tenant is under an AST the LL MUST ask permission and receive permission to access the property. This is law, the only time there may be an exception is if there is an emergency.

I have keys for all my investment properties i wouldn't expect anything different. And as i rent my HOME. I am happy that the LL has keys because if for some reason there was an emergency or i lost them i know there is another person that has keys. Because i and my LL am aware of the law and "quiet enjoyment" i know that my privacy will not be interfered with.

In the case by the OP the LL can be in so much trouble as they are harrassing the Tenant.
I would suggest contacting the relevent bodies, Shelter and CAB and ask them they same as here.
The points thats you need to address are:
Have they missed a payment? If they have missed a payment it will still not give the LL right to access the property, he will have to get a court order. Know exactly what was paid, when it was paid and what time periods it covers. If they are behind because he has increased the rent he must give them 2 months written notice and it can't be during an AST.
2. Accessing the property without notice. You must start keeping a notebook of all the times he has done this and start with all the times the ladies can remember in the past. Take note of the time and date. When he visits for this meeting point out that he is in breach of the AST - Quiet Enjoyment. From now on he will have to write to the ladies with at least 24 hours notice and receive permission to access the property before entering. On arrival after permission he must knock on the door and wait until it is answered unless otherwise given permission. If he fails to do this you will be required to report him for breaking the terms of the AST and breaking the law. The only time he would ever need to use his keys is if there was an emergency.

I know it is hard sometimes but the LL is just another person, do not be intimidated by him because he may seem to have an "i know everything" attitude. He is definately in the wrong in this case. Speak confidently and calmly to him. He sounds like he doesn't know what his rights are as a LL or the rights of a tenant.

prudryden

KAMINARI - Very well stated!

Please don't encourage Dreary, however, this interesting discussion will end up in chaos and confusion.:) It will end up that any laws or legal applications is all a figment of our
imagination.

jamesd

Prudryden, interesting quotes. Lets start with what the law is:

"Your landlord does not have an automatic right to have a key to your home unless your tenancy agreement says that this is the case. If you change the locks, you should keep the old keys and the original lock to return to the landlord." Source: Shelter

"If the tenant changes the lock, landlords are not entitled to a key unless it says so in the contract. If you do change the landlords locks it is advisable to preserve the fixtures and fittings." Hounslow tenant services.

Now lets move on to your posts.

prudryden wrote:

19. The tenant cannot change the locks on any doors or windows or make duplicate keys. All keys have to be returned to the landlord or their agent at the end of the tenancy.

SOURCE: Compactlaw.co.uk

(no source link)

Full context:

Compactlaw.co.uk: "What should be included in a tenancy agreement?"

"It is vital to have a proper tenancy agreement signed before any tenant occupies your property. A tenancy agreement is vital for setting out the tenant's obligations and the limitations of their rights" (my italics)

As is clear, the reason it's something that should be in the tenancy agreement is that otherwise the tenants are entitled to change the locks and not provide the landlord with a key.

prudryden wrote:

What is your landlord responsible for? Your landlord’s basic responsibilities include the following:
Maintenance If you have a residential lease that is for less than 7 years, your landlord is normally responsible for basic maintenance of and repairs to the property.Your landlord cannot charge you fees for the repair work and can only make you carry out the repairs yourself if he or she persuades a court to agree to this.
Basic maintenance includes things like:
■ making sure the property is ready to let, by cleaning, tidying, fixing and making safe any appliances, and removing anything that is not to be used in the property;
■ ensuring the security of the property and handing appropriate sets of keys to the managing agent (if there is one) and to you as tenant.You must never change the locks without the prior approval of the managing agent and/or landlord;

Source: Harrow.gov.uk

(no source link)

A little more context from just before the start of your quote: "According to UK law and your tenancy agreement". And since it's a normal part of a tenancy agreement, that is the part that limits the right to change the locks, not the law.

I'm glad to read that you support the tenants in this case, but like you I wanted to make sure that readers here aren't misinfomed about what the law really is.

Catmeister

I'm with Herb and Seven Day

The LL OWNS the property. It is his to do with as he wishes. He is merely lending it to someone to live in. Of course the tenant has rights, and of course the LL shouldn't just enter as he feels like it, but why should he not have a key?

Yes the tenant may feel uneasy that someone else has a key to their home, but the LL may also feel uneasy that someone has the ability to totally gut the house that they own. The letting process has to involve mutual trust.

In the case of OP, unless you want to cause these ladies more trouble, I would strongly recommend the softly softly approach. It sounds like they are vulnerable and do not have an involved social worker, so I'm guessing it would be massively stressful if it did go to court. Would the ladies appreciate you stirring up a hornet's nest?

On this occasion the LL has made an appointment to come and see the ladies. The fact that he wants to look at their bank documents suggests that he may well be missing a payment - why else would he demand to look if he knows it will show their regular payment to him? Have you confirmed with the bank that the cheque was paid as normal? If so, find out the date and place that it was paid. I am not saying that the LL has a right to look at their personal bank details, only that his desire to do so would add weight to his claim.

Why not take the opportunity to speak to LL about their rights to privacy? Rather than going in all guns blazing, perhaps mention that the ladies feel uncomfortable as he has come around unannounced, and you 'were under the impression' he needs to give written notice. If he tries to blag his way out of it, then is the time to let him know that you actually have all the information, and know exactly what these ladie's rights are. If you start on the attack, he may think they're more trouble than they're worth, and try and evict them. Regardless of whether he succeeds, and whether he has legal entitlement, this will cause no end of trouble and stress.

Know your rights, but know how to use them.

Hope this is helpful - I'm sure many will disagree with my advice, but it's so important to not be totally confrontational from the outset. The LL sounds like a bully, and I'm sure the ladies just want to be left alone. The way to do this is not by presenting a fight for the LL to get his teeth into, but quietly letting him know that his fun has ended.

deary65

Thank you for your kind words. I could not have put it better myself, the law is a fiction. The law as an abstract concept, exists only in so far as it can be enforced.

Now the law; no one owns land in this country that is in the sole Provence of the crown. What you purchase is the exclusive right to manage that land, no matter what sits upon it When you agree to exchange( exclusive possession) you become a reversioner, your interest in the land vests in the rent service(the money), the tenants interest vests in exclusive possession You are now a landlord, and must give quit enjoyment of that land to your tenant. The tenant as a crown subject has the right to protect themselves their possessions and their state of mind and so must you. That is the responsibilities you have freely entered into and the law will hold you to them.

With more armature btl landlords these problems are becoming more frequent, and I enjoy putting them in their place and teaching them to respect peoples “homes”.

The O.P clearly was not happy with the state of affairs so you offer advice. I have no problem with someone having a key to my home, but only with my consent. But never to a landlord!!