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Public Sector Pension Strikes – A JOKE !
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serious_saver wrote: »That would be a good idea.
Personally I don't blame them for striking. I would do the same if I was in their position. The same as any other contract, they signed up to one deal and now it's being changed. I would be p*&^%ed too.
In this country we seem to have an attitude that because the private sector get treated worse, we should bring the public sector down to the same level. Instead we should be trying to find a solution that improves the lot of those working in the private sector.
How exactly do we do that? Fund private sector pensions from taxation? Think for a moment about who ends up paying for it in that case (hint: the answer is all of us).
The problem is cost. It costs a lot more to provide pensions now than it did 10/20/40 years ago. In the private sector, this cost comes out of operating expense so the benefits have been cut back. The only other option would be pay cuts. In the public sector it's largely paid out of ongoing taxation (and guaranteed by such taxation) - and the poiliticians see that as a never ending fount of money. None of them want to lessen the benefits of public sector workers as that might cost them votes, but it's costing the country more and more money. Now someone steps up to try and fix things, and see what flak they face?Whoo hoo!
can you give me 30/60ths of £50k, and I'll give you 30/80ths of £50k?
It's close enough ain't it?
More mindless debate on pensions. It's always quite obvious it's the low paid (under £25k) who are most irate about this issue; which is ironic really.
In all cases I've seen (which may not be all cases, I accept) the pensions based on 80ths also come with 3n/80 cash. So you'd have either 30/60 of 50k = 25k pension or 30/80 of 50k = 18.75k pension plus 56.25k cash. It's the equivalent of a commutation factor of about 9, so I'd argue that you're better off with the full pension, but there's not actually as much in it as you'd think.You obviously have not looked into how much these changes will cost public sector workers.
1. Their contributions will rise 50%. Around £100 a month more for the average teacher.
2. Their working life will be extended 8 years.
3. Their pension is being cut by around 15% by the change from RPI to CPI.
4. Their final salary scheme is being replaced by a career average scheme.
If you are a teacher around 30 years old, these changes will cost you over £300,000. Now you may think £100 a month is a 'bit'. You might think working an extra 8 years is a bit longer. You might think a 15% cut in the value of your pension is a bit of a reduction. And you might think £300000 is a just bit of a money.
The people on the receiving end of this attack on their T & Cs of employment do not appear to share your perspective.
You have to accept that the way pensions have worked up until now is over. That's not coming back. So forget it and look at the new package with fresh eyes. Don't compare - just decide whether or not the new deal is a good one on it's own.
From what I can see, it's a pretty good deal (teacher on 30k, pays 3k per year for 40 years, total investment with returns at 5% above inflation is ~66.5k which would buy a pension of 3.3k or so per year. Instead they get 20k - so sounds very good to me)As they're contracted out, public sector workers won't get the £40 increase in the Basic State Pension.
Everyone gets the basic state pension. It's SERPS or S2P that you don't get if you're contracted out.You may slag the unions off but where would you or your ancestors be without them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolpuddle_Martyrs
Once upon a time (back in the 1830s) the unions were very useful. Now we have employment law, so they're not so useful except as a big tool to blackmail the employers with (give us what we want or we screw up your business). You'll note that there are not many unions in the private sector, and those that remain are a lot less prone to strike? That's because in the private sector strikes can make businesses fold - and that's not good for the workers.0 -
Most civil servants will have a pension of a lot less than you think. Taking out the fat cats at the top, the average pension for the average worker will be around £4-6,000 per year.
Hardly as gold-plated as some of the red tops would have you believe.
To be asked to pay £70 a month more for 8 years longer to receive less pension is why they are striking.Support your local community. Buy British.0 -
Lots of comments on what can't be afforded so lets talk about what can be afforded.
give or take a bit, 20% of the UK population are over retirement age
what would a fair percentage of the UK GDP be that these people should share?
(for reference at the moment, a little less that 2% of GDP (falling to 1.4% by 2025 according to Hutton) is spent on public sector pensions)0 -
Oh, don't forget about the pay freezes and 1% pay 'rises' that the civil servants have had over the last 10 years.Support your local community. Buy British.0
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Most civil servants will have a pension of a lot less than you think. Taking out the fat cats at the top, the average pension for the average worker will be around £4-6,000 per year.
Hardly as gold-plated as some of the red tops would have you believe.
To be asked to pay £70 a month more for 8 years longer to receive less pension is why they are striking.
The average pension is so low because the average person doesn't work for the same employer for 40 years - it's more like 5-10 years. Also, the public sector has a large number of part time workers.
For what they pay in, they get a fantastic deal.Lots of comments on what can't be afforded so lets talk about what can be afforded.
give or take a bit, 20% of the UK population are over retirement age
what would a fair percentage of the UK GDP be that these people should share?
(for reference at the moment, a little less that 2% of GDP (falling to 1.4% by 2025 according to Hutton) is spent on public sector pensions)
What would be fair would be for the public sector pensions to be funded, as private sector pensions must be - and subject to the same funding requirements. That way, everyone could see how much money was needed and how much the taxpayer was putting in.
That's not likely though...0 -
The average pension is so low because the average person doesn't work for the same employer for 40 years - it's more like 5-10 years. Also, the public sector has a large number of part time workers.
For what they pay in, they get a fantastic deal.
What would be fair would be for the public sector pensions to be funded, as private sector pensions must be - and subject to the same funding requirements. That way, everyone could see how much money was needed and how much the taxpayer was putting in.
That's not likely though...
how does funding make it fair?
and the Local Government Scheme is funded so are you saying that gold plated pensions are fair for Local Government but not fair for Teachers or Nurses?0 -
Whoo hoo!
can you give me 30/60ths of £50k, and I'll give you 30/80ths of £50k?
It's close enough ain't it?
More mindless debate on pensions. It's always quite obvious it's the low paid (under £25k) who are most irate about this issue; which is ironic really. :cool:
Let’s take this and look at some actual numbers. Let’s base it on 40 years in the Public Sector. (If you’ve only got 30 years in the Public Sector you should have provided for your extra 10 years of pension when in the Private Sector).
These figures are rough but they’re not that far out.
Whilst working on a Salary of £50K you’ll pay £5K Pension contribution (10%), £5K in NI and £7K in Tax – giving a net annual income of £33K.
On a 60ths scheme you’ll get £33.3K (2/3 of salary) and £7K state pension, you’ll pay £6K in tax giving you an income of £36K.
On a 80ths scheme you’ll get, £25K (1/2 of salary) and £7K state pension paying £4.25K in tax giving you an income of £27.75K
And you’re complaining and striking because in retirement you won’t get a raise in income of £3K and have to take a cut of £5.25K. There’ll be other pensioners who won’t be able to afford to turn on the heating whilst you suffer the indignity of having to mange on a meagre £27.75K instead of £36K.
Like I said previously in my original post – your GREED astounds me.0 -
Everyone gets the basic state pension. It's SERPS or S2P that you don't get if you're contracted out.
And the £40 increase in the basic state pension is connected with the merger of S2P into a single tier pension.
As public sector workers don't get S2P, they won't get the £40 increase either.
Treasury has already worked out that it's unfair for contracted out people to have received discounted NICs and ERNICs and to receive the same single tier pension £140 pension as someone contracted in who paid the full NICs and ERNICs rate. People who have contracted out, won't receive the full £140.0 -
And the £40 increase in the basic state pension is connected with the merger of S2P into a single tier pension.
As public sector workers don't get S2P, they won't get the £40 increase either.
Treasury has already worked out that it's unfair for contracted out people to have received discounted NICs and ERNICs and to receive the same single tier pension £140 pension as someone contracted in who paid the full NICs and ERNICs rate. People who have contracted out, won't receive the full £140.
I thought the 140 pension was an asperation like
'we have no plans to increase VAT'
or 'we are against increase in Uni fees'
or we will introduce a 'fuel equaliser to stablise fuel costs'
or .....0 -
Someone with gross income of £50,000 and a 10% employee contributon rate would pay £3,825 in NICs and £8,010 in income tax, giving a net income of £36,415.Whilst working on a Salary of £50K you’ll pay £5K Pension contribution (10%), £5K in NI and £7K in Tax – giving a net annual income of £33K.
Some of the £50,000 of gross pay is likely not to be pensionable.
And only a small percentage of public sector workers earn £50,000 so the example is not representative.
They would get £5,326 State Pension and pay £6,237 in tax, giving a net income of £32,423.On a 60ths scheme you’ll get £33.3K (2/3 of salary) and £7K state pension, you’ll pay £6K in tax giving you an income of £36K.
£5,326 of State Pension, £4,570 in tax giving a net income of £25,756.On a 80ths scheme you’ll get, £25K (1/2 of salary) and £7K state pension paying £4.25K in tax giving you an income of £27.75K
Plus a pension lump sum of £75,000.
Not sure where the £5,250 comes from - the proposal is not to move from a 1/60ths scheme to a 1/80ths scheme.And you’re complaining and striking because in retirement you won’t get a raise in income of £3K and have to take a cut of £5.25K.0
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