O2: Incredibly Poorly Thought Out System

gjchester

Ole_Cactus wrote: »

In my case, I reckon it was an honest mistake, but there's no doubt that some people do practice "deceptive selling".

You *ARE* lucky they will allow you to void it, Phones4U would not, there is no returns period in store for P4U sales. It probably was a mistake on their part, but just as much a mistake on yours for not reading what you signed.


You could have left without the contract but you chose to sign regardless. If you design management systems you should know that the contract is the legal underpinning of any service to the customer. The contract is ultimatley the thing the law would decide on, not any preliminaries, as thats what you signed.

I'm not trying to be nasty to you, apologies if it seems to be so, but at the end of the day a contract is a legal document that ties both parties to specific terms and conditions. It should be read carefully, and not rushed over for whatever reason, unfortunatly many of us fail to do so in the rush to get the latest shiny toy and this is a result.

Ole_Cactus

@gjchester I'm lucky because O2 are familiar with the Consumer Credit Directive and (according to you) Phones4u are not? Whatever a retailer might say, Uk law trumps their internal policies everytime.

grumbler

Could you quote the part of the Consumer Credit Directive that is relevant for your case?

Wintermute

O2s systems are setup in such a way that there's no way (without manually editing databases) to change the minimum term of a contract as there's generally no need to do it. The scenario you mentioned is surprisingly uncommon and is dealt with the way you described, returning the handset and taking out the connection/upgrade again, generally this isn't an issue, but because of the stock issues surrounding the 4S launch it is obviously one in this case. There are workarounds, but they do create problems along the line as the system will always see you as being in the original term of contract.

Development of O2's systems is not done in house so even simple changes can cost hundreds of thousands and as I'm sure you're aware businesses are required to do a cost-benefit analysis before implementing changes, so something that might cost O2 a handful of customers around iPhone launch date every year is unlikely to be a priority, especially when they don't have figures to say "we lose x customers every year, losing us £y due to us not being able to change contract terms." when there's plenty of figures to say "handing x calls about y costs us £z a year".

I agree 100% with gjchester that you ARE lucky it wasn't somewhere like P4U as you would be in for a fight no matter what the law says, especially if they're in a position to pull out a bit of paper with your signature on it and all you have is your word.

Ole_Cactus

I really don't understand this kind of thinking, I'm lucky because the company I'm dealing with isn't full of criminals? If Phones4u is getting away with breaking the law, it's only because too many people feel we should be grateful that we aren't treated even worse by various corporations. As a new user I can't post links so take the spaces out of the following and replace them with full-stops. which co uk/consumer-rights/buying-services/how-to-cancel-a-contract/your-rights/ As you can see, my having signed the contract would be irrelevant. Edit: The vast majority of firms have system development and maintenance done by an outside firm. I know the variables that caused this problem in my case and the contractors really should have taken them into account. It isn't as though people switching networks is a new phenomenon. Nor is the fact that some phones have very high demand in the first few months after release.

paul_and_shark

Ole_Cactus wrote: »

I really don't understand this kind of thinking, I'm lucky because the company I'm dealing with isn't full of criminals? If Phones4u is getting away with breaking the law, it's only because too many people feel we should be grateful that we aren't treated even worse by various corporations. As a new user I can't post links so take the spaces out of the following and replace them with full-stops. which co uk/consumer-rights/buying-services/how-to-cancel-a-contract/your-rights/ As you can see, my having signed the contract would be irrelevant.

If you sign a contract in a store for a phone you do not have any legal right to cancel or change your mind as the distance selling law is not applicable, and that is how the likes of p4u operate, it is only o2's goodwill that they offer a 14 day cooling off period if you purchase in a store, it is not a god given right, as the law is different for distance selling, ie online or over the phone.

Ole_Cactus

From the Which page that I (sort of) linked to earlier "Under the Consumer Credit Directive, which came into force on 1 February 2011, consumers now have 14 days to cancel a credit agreement. The legislation applies to all credit agreements, whether made in person, on the internet or over the phone, under changes to the Consumer Credit Act 1974" As I said earlier, it isn't that they're doing me a favour, the law is very clear on this issue.

Wintermute

Ole_Cactus wrote: »

I really don't understand this kind of thinking, I'm lucky because the company I'm dealing with isn't full of criminals? If Phones4u is getting away with breaking the law, it's only because too many people feel we should be grateful that we aren't treated even worse by various corporations. As a new user I can't post links so take the spaces out of the following and replace them with full-stops. which co uk/consumer-rights/buying-services/how-to-cancel-a-contract/your-rights/ As you can see, my having signed the contract would be irrelevant.

Contracts can be written or verbal, but it's always best to get a written contract if you can. And read the small print carefully before signing a contract – it could save you a lot of money and hassle later.
In most cases, once you've signed a contract, you're bound by it, and you can't change your mind. But, in some circumstances, the law gives you the right to cancel a contract.
New rights under the Consumer Credit Directive
Under the Consumer Credit Directive, which came into force on 1 February 2011, consumers now have 14 days to cancel a credit agreement. The legislation applies to all credit agreements, whether made in person, on the internet or over the phone, under changes to the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

The problem with that is a mobile phone contract is not a credit agreement so that's irrelevant. If they were you would have to sign a credit agreement at the start of the contract and they'd have to advertise APR

Ole_Cactus

My response to that is you're wrong in my case but generally speaking, yes, it's the law against misselling that would apply rather than the CCD.
I'm puzzled, are people so used to terrible, shady and downright dishonest practice that they expect me to be grateful because a firm doesn't break the law as a matter of corporate policy? Furthermore, I stand by my original point, holes in a system are like cockroaches. If you see one, then you've probably got twenty. If the contractor couldn't imagine that someone might switch from another network and buy a phone that's in short supply then they don't know the UK mobile market or O2's business in particular.

gjchester

Ole_Cactus wrote: »

My response to that is you're wrong in my case but generally speaking, yes, it's the law against misselling that would apply rather than the CCD.
I'm puzzled, are people so used to terrible, shady

Your right poor service and misselling should be stamped out. However your argument has flaws.

As has been said buying in store gives you no cooling off time, it's store goodwill that allows you to cancel.

Your confusing credit and service agreements and the relevent legislation around them.

The big issue is as Wintermute state at the end of the day you signed the contract, and regardless of any pre-amble, or print outs thats what you legally agreed to. By your own admission you didn't fully read the contract before you signed it, with hindsight you should have not signed and left to deal with the problem.

However proving mis selling is another thing, it is your word against theirs, you could have asked for 18 months got the print outs then said "No I'll go for 24 months" and hence the contract states it that way.

How o2 handle there systems or not is irrelevent, your not (as a customer) going to get them to change, you just have to follow their process, you should know that once a management procedure is put in place the shop assistant will have very little ability to change the process, as it's probably semi automated to ensure consistancy and adherance and to stop shop assistants or customer service people overriding it.