Landlady demanding a brand new door, what are my rights?

silk_2

princeofpounds wrote: »

Some people here are so unable to grasp the reality of removeable panels it is untrue.

Taking out a door panel and putting it back at the end of a tenancy is no different to unscrewing a lampshade and temporarily replacing it, or changing the lock barrel, or hanging your own shower curtain on a rail, or unscrewing a white loo seat to put in one with a design.

Tenants are permitted to make all of these sorts of changes to fittings because it causes no damage. Strictly speaking the landlord's input is not even needed. Fittings are not sacred. They just need to be returned to place on exit in fair condition.
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Which is exactly what my fitter was saying on the phone. He was in near hysterics at the absolute idiocy of the whole situation. When he swaps UPVC panels usually the tennant has not even asked permission simply because it is such a minor thing.

I tried to do the LL a favour by taking this safe approach, and even then I made no assumptions and told the EA I was going to likely do it!!

If anything, any tennants reading this thread will probably be put off being honest with their LL due to the attitudes shown by some.

silk_2

thegirlintheattic wrote: »

"I am sorry but I am not happy with having a dog flat installed in to the current door, but if the tenants wish to get a different door and have that installed then this would be fine, but I would want the current door stored in the garage at home.
Also if there is any damage done to the current door why it is in storage then the tenants will have to have this replace or repaired."

This is a no not a yes to putting in a panel.

PANEL <> DOOR

I have already had professional UPVC installers tell me this. Have you? It seems not. it seems that you, like my LL, are assuming this temporarilly swapped part is somehow a permanent fixture to the entire door. It is not, no more so than a lightbulb is to a lamp.

Additionally, and sorry if I sound like a broken record, out of SHEER COURTESY I told the EA I was likely going down the panels route and checekd the paperwork would be the same. Go back and read it. Then tell me I somehow tried to hide something.

thegirlintheattic

silk wrote: »

I ignored her wishes? Did you perhaps skim the part of the email trail where I explicitly asked/said the panel approach would likely be taken and explicitly asked if the paperwork would be the same in either case?

I love how people make up their own version of events whent he truth is right here in text.

I have looked at the e-mails.

She says no.

You then repeat the question " a new door, or swap the lower PVC panel to a new one" and say it's the same paperwork.

EA says they will draw up the paperwork and e-mail the LL, not staying anything about which option.

You chase them about the flap installation, again offering both options.

You get the flap installed, still without written permission.

The EA tells you the LL is not happy with what you have done.

Where exactly is the permission? Asking if the paperwork is the same and saying that you'll likely take the panel approach is not the same as the LL saying yes the panel approach is fine. At no point is this said by the EA or the LL.

This highlights what the problem is, you have jumped the gun. In future always remember to get express written permission for alterations, and wait for this paperwork to come through before starting work.

franklee

princeofpounds wrote: »

Taking out a door panel and putting it back at the end of a tenancy is no different to unscrewing a lampshade and temporarily replacing it, or changing the lock barrel, or hanging your own shower curtain on a rail, or unscrewing a white loo seat to put in one with a design.

Tenants are permitted to make all of these sorts of changes to fittings because it causes no damage. Strictly speaking the landlord's input is not even needed. Fittings are not sacred. They just need to be returned to place on exit in fair condition.

The only concern I have sympathy with is discolouration due to different ages of weathering, but to be frank with a White PVC door it is not likely to be an issue unless we are talking several years and even then a deposit arbitration or court might not even care; the door is still functional, some parts have just been used more than others.

BUT the advice is always to retain the landlord's original and reinstate it on leaving so that there can be no argument the landlord is getting a different or inferior replacement part. Particularly important with locks so that the landlord can be sure the lock is of the same specifications and that he has all his own keys.

Anything of the landlord's I take down be it curtains, lampshades etc. I store carefully and reinstate before leaving.

I think the OP has gone wrong to put the dog flap into the landlord's panel and not into her own new one. The landlord's panel now has the flap in it and given the door may already be several years old who is to say it hasn't already changed colour from brand new. The fall out of that comes when the tenant leaves, in reality is there a claim for damage or not which remains to been seen at that time. Meanwhile if the OP apologises and gives reassurance all will be put right at the end of the tenancy hopefully this can be put aside for now.

ruggedtoast

A new door would be 'betterment'. She is not entitled to it, though you should return the place in good order and maintain fixtures and fittings.

Nice flap by the way.

silk_2

franklee wrote: »

I think the OP has gone wrong to put the dog flap into the landlord's panel and not into her own new one. The landlord's panel now has the flap in it and given the door may already be several years old who is to say it hasn't already changed colour from brand new. The fall out of that comes when the tenant leaves, in reality is there a claim for damage or not which remains to been seen at that time. Meanwhile if the OP apologises and gives reassurance all will be put right at the end of the tenancy hopefully this can be put aside for now.

Dear holy god, I was trying to do her a favour doing it this way, there was no benefit to me doing it this way personally as opposed to storing her panel ;/

I saw her existing panel had doggy scratch marks on...

It really shows you, that you shouldn't be nice to people this does.

ruggedtoast wrote: »

A new door would be 'betterment'. She is not entitled to it, though you should return the place in good order and maintain fixtures and fittings.

Nice flap by the way.

I fully intend that her entire property is in the same or better condition when I leave, that's the main frustration for me.

neas

That was my point all along..

You didnt have permission.
You changed HER panel instead of the NEW one.

If you had changed the new one and then replaced old one at end then there would definately not have been any aging issue at all.

I don't believe upvc doesnt age. Can you show us a picture in the light on day from the outside with both panels?

What you've shown is probably 1. the inside which hasnt had constant UV damage. 2. A dark photo which won't show colour difference.

If there is a shade difference thats not betterment it looks like someones booted the door in at some point and someone had to replace it.

Totally think you jumped the gun, and as you can see not the only one with that opinion.

The issue isnt around the IF you can make it look EXACTLY the same afterwards (which you had a better chance with the old panel) its the fact you ASKED for PERMISSION.... and you WAS DENIED IT.

You was offered a different SOLUTION... and DID NOT. take it. Unless you have difficulty understanding english then its quite clear from emails what she meant... (Dont change my door you can change your door... and even then you didnt take that when you misconstrued that as panel... you DID change her panel (and thus her original Door).

Sorry but you being silly.. you want us to tell you one thing when you are blind to what you've done wrong. Its not about detail its about fact she said NO and you just did it anyways. What sort of basis of trust is that?

I'd be turfing you out ASAP because how can i trust you wont just decide to change other things in the house because YOU DECIDE it is betterment.

princeofpounds

BUT the advice is always to retain the landlord's original and reinstate it on leaving so that there can be no argument the landlord is getting a different or inferior replacement part. Particularly important with locks so that the landlord can be sure the lock is of the same specifications and that he has all his own keys.

Anything of the landlord's I take down be it curtains, lampshades etc. I store carefully and reinstate before leaving.

Whilst I agree that this is more correct a procedure than modifying the exiting fitting and then replacing it with an essentially identical replica, that doesn't mean that the landlord is entitled to anything except a replacement panel. A landlord would not be entitled to a new window frame if a window was broken, or a new bathroom suite if the toilet bowl cracked, or a new shower rail if the curtain got mouldy. A broken part does not justify a new whole, and a landlord cannot tell you how to use a part, only demand that it is replaced if broken.

A court would tell her to get lost because it is impossible to point to any loss or damage, perhaps except beyond some discolouration which a judge would likely ignore unless serious (and from the photos it appears to be totally fine). And as for a new door, that would clearly be betterment.

Yes the tenant did not fulfil proper procedure. But they have remedied the situation perfectly well.

tom9980

100% agree with priceofpounds!.

My opinion is this is all a fuss over nothing. As long as you replace the panel there is nothing the LL can do about it legally unless damage has occurred.

My advice is to now cease contact about this issue. If the LL/Agent ask you about it simply state at the end of the tenancy you will ensure the property is returned in the same state less fair wear and tear as it was in at the start of the tenancy, say no more than this and let things blow over.

The LL's only option would then to be to evict you and they would be foolish to do that! or to try and force you to replace the door when you do leave but since that is clearly betterment they will have very little chance of claiming your deposit.

One last question did they do a proper inventory at the start of the tenancy? Honestly this is minor squabbling over nothing compared to most of the threads on this forum.

silk_2

tom9980 wrote: »

100% agree with priceofpounds!.

My opinion is this is all a fuss over nothing. As long as you replace the panel there is nothing the LL can do about it legally unless damage has occurred.

My advice is to now cease contact about this issue. If the LL/Agent ask you about it simply state at the end of the tenancy you will ensure the property is returned in the same state less fair wear and tear as it was in at the start of the tenancy, say no more than this and let things blow over.

The LL's only option would then to be to evict you and they would be foolish to do that! or to try and force you to replace the door when you do leave but since that is clearly betterment they will have very little chance of claiming your deposit.

One last question did they do a proper inventory at the start of the tenancy? Honestly this is minor squabbling over nothing compared to most of the threads on this forum.

The voice of reason and a clear answer to my OP, thank you.

Like I said, the replies shown by some are a clear indication as to why tennants feel the need to hide things from LL's sometimes. It really is being blown out of proportion.

I hold my hand up and admit somewhere I made an assumption that doing what the professional workers advised was the best call; but at no point was I trying to mislead my LL because at no point did I hide the panels suggestion from the EA.

My only further contact will be to pass on a word from the fitter himself, when it arrives.

And yes we had a full video inventory with a third party impartial company. We went around the house with her making additions where necessary. I have no issues with the house being left in the same, if not better condition when we leave.