Landlady demanding a brand new door, what are my rights?

silk_2

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

Just assure the agent/landlord that you will reinstate the removed panel when the tenancy ends. As you had an approved tradesman to install the new panel I'm sure that they'd be willing to confirm in writing that no damage has been or will be done (for a small fee, I daresay).

Did you consider having the door replaced when you received that email earlier? Seems that was the only condition for the landlady giving approval the dog-flap, so I don't see why you should have gone ahead against the landlady's wishes and not expected some "discussion" about it later.

If your own tenant had done the same thing in the property you rent out how would you feel in the same situation?

Interestingly I have a tennant, and if I'm being completely honest, I'd be somewhat relieved if she was honest enough to ask permission and do things properly rather than just doing them.

Instead of changing the whole door, to reduce risk of damages we swapped out part of it. At no point have I refused to replace the door if it gets damaged, whether due to me replacing a panel or due to the whole door falling on the floor when it gets replaced or damaged due to damp if it's sat in a garage. I think that's a perfectly acceptable constraint!

The point here is it hasn't been damaged and she's asking for a new door, which has me somewhat confused and upset.

Badger_Lady wrote: »

Is it just me? Reading those quotes you've posted, the LL only expects the door to be replaced at the end of the tenancy, which is what you hoped for.

As for the panel replacement, perhaps inviting her for an inspection would ease her mind? She clearly thinks that a section has been cut out and will be filled in, rather than it being a panel of the door that's designed to be removable.

I've told the EA I'll send photos tonight that I want passing on, and to tell her she can ask either them or one of her friends (she isn't local) to come look by all means.

I am simply trying to be reasonable.

Initially yes the LL said replace the door at the end of tennancy. Her "changing her mind completely" is the only part I don't have in writing, the EA simply called me to tell me one day; presumably after a few months chewing over whether she was happy with replacing the panel instead of the whole door she just got cold feet about the whole thing. I'm honestly not sure.

silk_2

Here is the full transcript of emails. You can ignore the second/small dog stuff as that is signed for and sorted now.

This conversation started on the 6th July.

me wrote:

I’m xxx, one of the Tenants of 44 Dulwich close. xxx and I would like to know if it would be OK for us to replace the back door and put in a secure dog flap. Of course we would keep the original back door and replace it when moving out, so wouldn’t be making any lasting changes. Which brings me to my second question, we would like to know if the landlady would be OK with us getting a second (small) dog?

EA wrote:

I have tried to call xxx reference your queries below but her line is not ringing out - so I wanted to let you know that the Landlord will allow a second (small) dog but she has not responded regarding the dog flap as yet but I will keep you updated, once I have heard from the Landlord about this I need you to sign an additional clause, I will send this as soon as I can

me wrote:

I am very happy to hear about the dog. As for the flap, like I said we are happy to have it done in either the landlady’s back door (professionally) or get a temporary secure back door with a flap and then replace it with her current door when we move out.

EA wrote:

The Landlord has asked for better details on the dog flap could you be a little more specific on the work that will need to be underatken (the Landlord is not adverse to the idea)

me wrote:

We'd use these guys or someone similar to get a nice professional job:

http://www.catflapfitter.co.uk/

We'll do more research to make sure we get the absolute best we can, if she gives us the go ahead.

If the landlady is interested in a dogflap for herself (should she ever wish to move back in here in the future), then we would be happy to pay for a larger one for her dogs, otherwise it will a small one for Jack Russels.

.. then a long delay. So I asked how it was going and got this:

EA wrote:

I think there has been some confusion I was awaiting confirmation from you regarding details on the dog flap and who you would be actually using? I am sorry if I misunderstood? I can not find the last link you sent me, could you resend so I can send this on to the Landlord and gain some further instructions from there

me wrote:

Well, we haven't made a final decision, as we don't know if we're allowed a flap, so yeah some confusion both sides I think .

We so far have two farily decent looking companies that can come around and fit a flap professionally.

http://www.wefitforyou.co.uk/dogflaps.html
http://www.catflapfitter.co.uk/

Most likely the first one, as they seem more specialised. Interestingly they also refit UPVC panels for flap removal, which is another option - this could be the best of both worlds as I could get the current panel removed and stored away safely, then use a new panel to install the flap. Once we move out I would then have the panels swapped back around.

For the flap so far I'm considering this one:

http://www.staywell.co.uk/Intl/UK/Products/Small-Dogs/200-Series

But I need to check our doggy will fit thruogh it, as she is a little fatty!

It's safe to assume that whatever we end up picking won't deviate far from the information above; but if you want us to make a final decision on the exact flap and fitters now then let me get back to you either later today or tomorrow.

.. no reply so I chase up!

me wrote:

Any news yet on the dog flap, or the forms we need to sign to get a second doggy?

We checked the sizes of the flaps, and our little fatty can fit through the smll dog one, which is the one I already linked to you. So it'll be that exact flap, with the fitters that I also already linked to you. We'll also go with the option of simply swapping door panels around, though if that's not possible I'll get back to you and discuss further options. Is there anything else you require or are you just waiting on the landlady to reply?

EA wrote:

This info should be fine, I will confirm the below with the Landlord and draw up the relevant document, we have had some real problems with our computers and it has created a back log on the admin side of things so I apologise for the delay in sending the paperwork out

Didn't hear anything for a few weeks so sent this:

me wrote:

Was kind of hoping you would be calling this week with any updates; do you have anything at all?

We're off on a short break soon and wanted to get the flap sorted by then (if we do get permission).

EA wrote:

I had a reply from the Landlord yesterday so planned to update you today, her reply is below
I am sorry but I am not happy with having a dog flat installed in to the current door, but if the tenants wish to get a different door and have that installed then this would be fine, but I would want the current door stored in the garage at home.
Also if there is any damage done to the current door why it is in storage then the tenants will have to have this replace or repaired.
Let me know what you think to this and I will draw up the relevant paperwork

me wrote:

I never expected her to say yes to modifying the existing door, so no worries there.

So then, a new door, or swap the lower PVC panel to a new one, install the flap on that new panel, then swap the panels back over when we move out. In eithercase it'd be the same paperwork right? I am happy to state that I will pay to replace the current door should anything happen to it etc.

EA wrote:

I am going to draw something up now and email this to the LL to authorise I will then send this to you for approval and signature

me wrote:

Is this on it's way? I am about to make a formal booking on the flap installation (with new door or panel).

.. then a few more weeks, we got impatient by now and got it installed.

Then out of the blue a phonecall saying LL isn't happy with any of it anymore. So I tell the EA it's installed, and a cpl weeks later I get this:

EA wrote:

The Landlord has been in touch regarding the door situation. She has expressed that she is really not happy with this and expects that the door now should be replaced for new-she feels that to repair the existing door would leave that door in a sub-standard condition and as no agreement in writing has been given this is what she is requesting

I have told the Landlord that I would advise you of this accordingly. The Landlord has been provided with all the information you gave when this request was initially put forward but does not feel that a repair to the existing door is suitable

Please confirm receipt of this email and also of any further comments you may have

You've seen the rest.

Regarding the wording of the last one, I called EA for clarification on the word "repair" and she apologised and said that was her wording not the LL's.

I posted all this because I detected some posters thought I was trying to hide something, so there it all is.

I also have an invoice for the work.

BitterAndTwisted

Quite honestly, if the LL isn't willing to come out and inspect the door, or won't instruct the agent to do it on her behalf I think you're just left with the choice of either reinstating the original panel at the end of your tenancy or considering buying a whole new door.

I expect the root of the problem is the way the agent has been communicating with the landlord about all this. Your proposal to take out the panel and replace it at the end of your tenancy seems perfectly reasonable to me IF you are certain that there will be no discernible damage to it.

In your position I would replace the panel and wait to see if the agent notices that it's not a new door. What does the original inventory have to say about it and are there photos?

franklee

It does read to me like you jumped the gun. She writes very clearly she wants you to go the replacement door route yet in your reply to that you bring the panel idea back in regardless she has already written she doesn't want that done.

silk wrote: »

I am sorry but I am not happy with having a dog flat installed in to the current door, but if the tenants wish to get a different door and have that installed then this would be fine, but I would want the current door stored in the garage at home. Also if there is any damage done to the current door why it is in storage then the tenants will have to have this replace or repaired.

silk wrote: »

I never expected her to say yes to modifying the existing door, so no worries there.

So then, a new door, or swap the lower PVC panel to a new one, install the flap on that new panel, then swap the panels back over when we move out. In eithercase it'd be the same paperwork right? I am happy to state that I will pay to replace the current door should anything happen to it etc.

It may be you feel she didn't understand the panel replacement but there was a clear no to it before you got it installed.

Also your latest email (in post #5) sounds too stressy, it's not a conciliatory tone which I think you need to adopt now. If you write to the landlord in that manner it's not likely to get the best results.

Not that they can force you to change it now, it'd be a case of them assessing any damage and charging you for it after you leave which if the door really is not damaged should be no charge. However (when you do leave) surely it would be better to reinstate the original panel and not a brand new one as these things age and discolour so a brand new panel likely won't match the rest of the door.

silk_2

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

In your position I would replace the panel and wait to see if the agent notices that it's not a new door. What does the original inventory have to say about it and are there photos?

General wear and tear and grubbiness throughout really. So far we have the house cleaner and nicer than when we moved in, especially the kitchen. :rotfl:

Yes I am also thinking just replace it when we move out and see if issues do arise. I am just eternally grateful that the fitter suggested taking photos before the work. Now if it ever came to it I have proof that not only is the door not damaged but looks cleaner and newer than before (or will do when the new panel goes in).

You know something just struck me. The door has a "feature" we noticed in summer, the heat seems to affect the frame and the door becomes nearly impossibly to close. I don't know if the heat causes swelling or some such. Interestingly we did report this to the EA at the time, and I suspect it's something the LL was well aware of. Do you think she's trying to pull a fast one? Nah.. surely not..

franklee wrote: »

It does read to me like you jumped the gun. She writes very clearly she wants you to go the replacement door route yet in your reply to that you bring the panel idea back in regardless she has already written she doesn't want that done.

It may be you feel she didn't understand the panel replacement but there was a clear no to it before you got it installed.

Also your latest email (in post #5) sounds too stressy, it's not a conciliatory tone which I think you need to adopt now. If you write to the landlord in that manner it's not likely to get the best results.

Not that they can force you to change it now, it'd be a case of them assessing any damage and charging you for it after you leave which if the door really is not damaged should be no charge. However (when you do leave) surely it would be better to reinstate the original panel and not a brand new one as these things age and discolour so a brand new panel likely won't match the rest of the door.

The stressy post was to the EA and we've spoken on the phone since. She understands my angst as this whole thing has been going on for a very long time and it's become frustrating.

I wasn't trying to jump the gun, I saw changing the panel as a safer and more sensible option both for ourselves and the LL and I have mentioned the panel idea twice? three times? So it wasn't hidden or done deceitfully. What I don't know is if the EA told the LL about the panel idea or just lumbered her with it at the last minute and gave her half a story!

Perhaps I am being naive but surely the panel swap is less risky than a door swap? The professionals I asked all said this is the case. More importantly I did not go against her wishes, she said she didn't want the door adjusting. I agreed with her, I have not adjusted the door it is perfectly in-tact and undamaged.

You have a point about the new panel though. I will have to cross that bridge when I come to it. I had a look and it appeared to match just fine, maybe I'll have to grubby it up a bit to make it age? Oh the irony!

Badger_Lady

silk wrote: »

More importantly I did not go against her wishes, she said she didn't want the door adjusting. I agreed with her, I have not adjusted the door it is perfectly in-tact and undamaged.

That does seem to be the point of confusion, though. The landlady seems to be aware of two options:

1. Replace the door
2. Adjust the door

She chose option 1, but you went ahead with option 2. Okay, your version of option 2 is low-risk zero-damage, but she's not to know this.

I still don't see anything in your correspondence that says you have to replace the door now.

sonastin

silk wrote: »

More importantly I did not go against her wishes, she said she didn't want the door adjusting. I agreed with her, I have not adjusted the door it is perfectly in-tact and undamaged.

I'm not following your logic on this one. The door had a panel in the bottom. Now it has a panel fitted with a dog flap. How is that NOT adjusting the door. Just because it is a reversible adjustment doesn't mean that you haven't made alterations. The LL's reasoning might not make sense to you but if she said she wanted a new door rather than the original door tampering with, that is what you ought to have done if you were going to go ahead without further discussion.

Perhaps if you get the professional fitters to write an explanation of the work involved in the alterations and confirm that the process is entirely reversible without any form of deterioration in the quality of the door, that might pacify the LL. Looking at it objectively, your word probably isn't going to be enough to convince me if I get the feeling you are trying to pull a fast one. (not saying you are but the LL might be feeling like that if she's getting that message from the EA's chinese whispers).

silk_2

Badger_Lady wrote: »

That does seem to be the point of confusion, though. The landlady seems to be aware of two options:

1. Replace the door
2. Adjust the door

She chose option 1, but you went ahead with option 2. Okay, your version of option 2 is low-risk zero-damage, but she's not to know this.

I still don't see anything in your correspondence that says you have to replace the door now.

Ah ok now I think see.

By door I thought she meant the actual door frame, a part that can't be replaced.

The panels are completely replacable. I don't view swapping a panel as adjusting the door. Maybe that's where the confusion lies?

I never expected her to say yes to modifying the existing door, so no worries there.

So then, a new door, or swap the lower PVC panel to a new one, install the flap on that new panel, then swap the panels back over when we move out. In eithercase it'd be the same paperwork right? I am happy to state that I will pay to replace the current door should anything happen to it etc.

See I did ask this.

The door frame, glass or any static part has been left safe and sound.

Hopefully this will all blow over, I have intentionally tried to do the safest and best thing for all parties after all.

GDB2222

The only part I don't understand is how you can get a door panel to match colour-wise. I expect it's white, but there's new white and old white, etc. The LL is certainly entitled to a door that looks in one piece, not with differently coloured panels.

silk_2

sonastin wrote: »

Perhaps if you get the professional fitters to write an explanation of the work involved in the alterations and confirm that the process is entirely reversible without any form of deterioration in the quality of the door, that might pacify the LL. Looking at it objectively, your word probably isn't going to be enough to convince me if I get the feeling you are trying to pull a fast one. (not saying you are but the LL might be feeling like that if she's getting that message from the EA's chinese whispers).

Grand idea, I'll do just that.

I don't know what sort of a fast one I'd be pullling here, usually a fast one means trying to get something for nothing right? Or make profit through questionable means? Or I guess pull wool over someones eyes but I don't know how you can say that after you can see for yourself I was quite clear on the panels to the EA. Am I to blame if they did not communicate this back to the LL (which is what I am guessing is the case)?

GDB2222 wrote: »

The only part I don't understand is how you can get a door panel to match colour-wise. I expect it's white, but there's new white and old white, etc. The LL is certainly entitled to a door that looks in one piece, not with differently coloured panels.

Yes and if it is a mismatch (which I don't think it is) I will either attempt to fix it or buy a new door. nb. The panel was ordered especially to match the door. I am not a total b1tch.