Do Greek voters think they can just go on spending more than they earn forever?

IronWolf

To me there is no difference between "accept or don't accept bailout" and "in or out of the euro" but I can see why France and Germany want the latter question, because the Greeks just dont seem to comprehend the consequences of what will happen without the bailout.

The most likely event now is Greece get out of the Euro and start printing vast sums of money to pay their obligations to the public sector and so on, while underneath the bonnet continue to make deep cuts although now they just need to freeze payments in nominal terms. This is going to cause hyperinflation, but will seem "nicer" to the people because they don't notice as much that they'll collectively take a 50% pay cut

Graham_Devon

Really2 wrote: »

Personally I think it is nothing to do with democracy and is a re-election stunt.

It's a bit like asking a skint person to vote on an IVA arranged for them that sees many debts written off or just walking away?

It is odd that they give the people the say in which bad future they chose but never give them a say about joining.

I cant call picking your fate democracy,.
I think choosing to live or die is the democracy. Not the choice of how you are going to die.

That's why I said a politician "for whatever reason".

Doesn't matter what the reasoning is behind it. It still reminds everyone else that we do actually live in the democracy the politicians wanting to dictate, apparently hold so dear.

And as I said, it doesn't matter what the reason is, the fact people may get a say is riling the wannabe dictators....Sarkozy is publicly showing his anger now, telling our PM to keep his nose out, and telling the people the Euro project is more important than democracy.

I find it amusing that it's only now, when their Euro project is at stake, that they get tough with the bail our conditions, and play blackmail. Before now, bailouts have been given regardless of the targets for such a bailout being met.

John_Pierpoint

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Eire has problems down the road. Like the entire Western world it requires a high level of growth every year to service its levels of debt. If growth fails to materialise then the debt becomes unsustainable.

QE and devaluing currencies is merely creating a race to the bottom.

Maybe globalisation as we know it has run its course. Time for every country to actually address the problems it individually faces.

Then we can add a tariff wall war, hey presto we are right back to the 1930's.

The real problem is that the hewers of wood and the drawers of water think they are entitled to better wages and worst a life on welfare, when compared to people with similar skills in other countries.
To a small extent they are; as they have inherited much of the public infra structure (per head) from the toil of their grandparents, but that is a wasting asset. It requires input from every generation. Especially a generation that is already deeply in debt, because they and their politicians tried to "take the waiting out of wanting".

Really2

Graham_Devon wrote: »

That's why I said a politician "for whatever reason".

Doesn't matter what the reasoning is behind it. It still reminds everyone else that we do actually live in the democracy the politicians wanting to dictate, apparently hold so dear.

And as I said, it doesn't matter what the reason is, the fact people may get a say is riling the wannabe dictators....Sarkozy is publicly showing his anger now, telling our PM to keep his nose out, and telling the people the Euro project is more important than democracy.

I find it amusing that it's only now, when their Euro project is at stake, that they get tough with the bail our conditions, and play blackmail. Before now, bailouts have been given regardless of the targets for such a bailout being met.

Picking which way you want the country to fail so it can be blamed on them in the future is not democracy.
Democracy is voting for a party and them making the decisions, not just handing the really bad decisions out for a vote.

Democracy would be starting an election.

I presume the government there are not going to do it on every important decision? If people think this idea is democracy they are easily fooled, the decision to have a referendum was not even democratic!!!

Even a dictator can give people a choice, so I fail to see how this can be viewed as democracy in action?

Democracy is freedom to vote on government, it is not freedom to vote on which bad fate you want, so you don't blame the people you voted in.

A decision by one man to offer a decision on fate is not democracy in action IMHO.

Democracy will be a no confidence vote and election.

Thrugelmir

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Doesn't matter what the reasoning is behind it.

Simple. With a 1 vote majority. The PM has no guarantee that the austerity measures will be adopted by parliament, nor does it appear that the Greek populace wish to be controlled from outside the country. So better to seek a clear mandate. Than continue to struggle on with an economy that's being disrupted by strikes. Let the people have their say on whether they want to be part of a fiscal union within Europe.

Really2

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Simple. With a 1 vote majority. The PM has no guarantee that the austerity measures will be adopted by parliament, nor does it appear that the Greek populace wish to be controlled from outside the country. So better to seek a clear mandate. Than continue to struggle on with an economy that's being disrupted by strikes. Let the people have their say on whether they want to be part of a fiscal union within Europe.

Personally I think it is deeper than that.

The people want their say on what government they have as there is a real swell for elections ASAP.
I think that vote would most probably decide € membership.

gailey_2

ahh watching the news makes me mad @times

The markets and eurozone want government to fall in greece.
so they can then cancel the referendum
steamroll ahead with the bailout and austerity cuts effectivly making it under german control.

The markets are very fickle they change day today.
they so fragile the slightest bit of news affects the market.
I think due to europlaying catchup then they will need tp throw more money at greece and italy now.
greek bond markets are too high.

Im not sure new government could control the civil unrest thats going on in greece now.
I think damage is done now.

they should least be allowed the votes despite the threats.

Also hear today legislation to pass referendum was done a month ago!
why did no 1 in eu notice?
They are very embarressed, scared and angry right now.

IronWolf

I wonder why people get so bothered about what the "markets" think anyway, it suddenly big news when the stock market drops 2% in a day. Given that 70% of trades on the stock exchange are now made by supercomputers who have no concept of external factors outside of price movements it really doesn't mean anything.

All that matters to governments are the bond buyers.

Graham_Devon

Greek PM about to resign.

Pressure from the Eurocrats must be immense.

Means that the referendum will be cancelled and Sarkozy etc will be able to make the changes they want for Greece, in effect.

Really2

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Greek PM about to resign.

Pressure from the Eurocrats must be immense.

Means that the referendum will be cancelled and Sarkozy etc will be able to make the changes they want for Greece, in effect.

AFIK they can't push it through if it goes to re election. I think they said it could take up to 3 months. Only way of making it go through is a new leader and additional support from other partys.

I don't think it is the pressure from europe that has shifted him, more like the decent in his own ranks announcing something that did not even have party approval.

He only just had a majority, his actions have lost him that majority. Perhaps he should have got support before announcing it?