Do Greek voters think they can just go on spending more than they earn forever?

Graham_Devon

julieq wrote: »

To be honest I doubt they do know the consequences. Most of their leaders do, which is why they've decided that taking Europe's money is probably better for everyone than economic disaster and bankruptcy. As I've pointed out, Greece is not Argentina.

What the EU made clear today was that they were prepared to make an example of Greece. That is a very important step. The Greeks will have their say probably at an election, but it's clear that if they don't mend their ways they'll be kicked out of the EU altogether rather than being allowed to negotiate better terms. That removes some of the uncertainty and allows the two futures to be presented accurately to the Greek electorate: so far that hasn't happened.

Democracy is NOT about allowing voters a say on all issues - on many they are very poorly informed - but to elect leaders on general principles and allow them to decide issues. General elections are the ultimate referendum, and there will probably be one.

Almost everything I read, disagrees with your stance.

Whether that be the telegraph, the guardian, or the BBC.

ChiefGrasscutter

julieq wrote: »

General elections are the ultimate referendum, and there will probably be one.

Not round here they aren't.
Safe seat - no point in bothering to turn out.
Actually I have never ever in my entire life voted in any general or local election.

Really2

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Almost everything I read, disagrees with your stance.

Whether that be the telegraph, the guardian, or the BBC.

So any country not having referendums on virtually everything are not democratic?

Or that France and Germany have said it is no longer negotiable?

Or that it has been stated to leave the Euro you would have to leave the EU?

The European Commission has clarified an earlier AFP report (See 1137) quoting an unnamed EC spokeswoman which suggested EU treaties did not "foresee an exit from the eurozone without exiting the EU". A spokesman tells the BBC that the treaties simply do not envisage a country leaving the euro. Separately, there are procedures for leaving the European Union in the treaties.

Or that a very likely outcome of this will be a Greece general election?

TBH all seems to have be fairly true and in the news.

One person announcing a referendum on their political death bed is not democracy.
Democracy is about the right to chose your govenment, not your right to vote on legislation. It would still be compleatly democratic if they put it through as the people voted in the government?

ILW

Where do the protestors (who appear to be manly public sector) think their wages will come from if the bail out is not accepted?

Graham_Devon

Really2 wrote: »

So any country not having referendums on virtually everything are not democratic?

Or that France and Germany have said it is no longer negotiable?

Or that it has been stated to leave the Euro you would have to leave the EU?


Or that a very likely outcome of this will be a Greece general election?

TBH all seems to have be fairly true and in the news.

One person announcing a referendum on their political death bed is not democracy.
Democracy is about the right to chose your govenment, not your right to vote on legislation. It would still be compleatly democratic if they put it through as the people voted in the government?

No.

It's more to do with the railroading.

You have taken my comments about democracy to heart a little too much I fear, and trying to suggest I said a lot of stuff which I haven't.

All I stated was that the politicians were reminded that democracy exists, and they didn't like it one little bit. Hence the railroading and dictating what Greek will and will not be allowed to do.

As was said on the news late last night. Sarkozy simply will not allow the Greece PM to ask the Greek a question. Sarkozy and Merkel will decide the question, to provide the answer they want.

Asking if they should accept the terms of a bailout is the question they were not allowed to be asked, and Sarkozy and Merkel made sure of that. If you saw any of the interviews late last night they were pretty heated. One thing was for sure, Sarkozy and Merkel had more power, and were using it any way they needed to to make sure they got the answer they wanted. They were simply not going to allow the greeks to be asked whether they accepted the terms or not, no matter what it took to make sure of it.

Really2

Graham_Devon wrote: »

No.

It's more to do with the railroading.

????
He has lost parliamentary majority by his actions, you can read what you like in the papers but the bare fact is he as lost support from his own party.

He now does not have the power to pass any legislation.

If you want to keep going on about democracy, the members of parliment vote democratically on legislation.
If you no longer hold a majority when in power your position is untenable.

After your edit,

Chosing the bailout terms is not an option that is why it cant be asked, they have to take it to stay in the euro and the EU AFIK.

The truth of the mater is (and that is why I don't think many understand) a vote would be to stay in the euro and take the bailout or default and leave the euro and the EU.

Not accepting the terms isn't on the table in reality, so not accepting the terms is in reality a vote for default.

A effect has to be written in to the question in reality,

I personally would not like to pay my mortgage but a vote like the following.

Q1, Should I pay my mortgage
1) Yes
2) No

May have a differnet outcome if you put the reality on it.

Q2) Should I pay my mortgage? If you don't you will lose your house
1) Yes
2) No

Same question, but more than likely two very different outcomes.

Graham_Devon

Really2 wrote: »

????
He has lost parliamentary majority by his actions, you can read what you like in the papers but the bare fact is he as lost support from his own party.

He now does not have the power to pass any legislation.

If you want to keep going on about democracy, the members of parliment vote democratically on legislation.
If you no longer hold a majority when in power your position is untenable.

He has lost power because he has lost his ability to do anything, due to the meeting. It's clear who makes the rules for Greece, and it's simply not him. Not after that meeting. If he had come out winning, he wouldn't be in the position he is now.

jamespmg44

Referendum scrapped according to Sky News.

gailey_2

I feel sorry for him

bbc still not confirmed hes resigned right now
vote tommorow.

i think he tookover when greece was in bad state.
hes the one whos had to make the difficult unpopular decisions
cope with the riots
go begginging to eu and imf and get told off/bossed about like small child.

hes trying to get the greeks to decide and stop his country from social crumble/

he seems very articulate, he speaks fluent english as grew up and studied in states.
his grandfather was pm.

sometimes a country needs a strong ,articulate leader and so far from what little I have seen no one stands out and strong enough to keep a co-alition together or renegociate terms.

Really2

Graham_Devon wrote: »

He has lost power because he has lost his ability to do anything, due to the meeting. It's clear who makes the rules for Greece, and it's simply not him. Not after that meeting. If he had come out winning, he wouldn't be in the position he is now.

Correct, that is called democracy if it was just him it would be a dictatorship.

He needs 151 votes to pass any legislation out of 300 = Democracy.