MSE News: Solar subsidies to be slashed under government plans

John_Pierpoint

Barter wrote: »

But we live in an old Victorian house; solid, not cavity walls, & if we wait/can't get in before the deadline, we're scuppered, according to this copied from Martin's article:

" New energy efficiency requirement

In addition, people who install after 1 April 2012 will have to produce an energy performance certificate to qualify for the full payments.
The certificates grade homes on energy efficiency, and you’ll need to be grade C or above, which means having loft and cavity wall insulation. This will be another outlay if you don't have them ... Homes on lower grades will get less than half the standard payments."

Although we've put in all the energy saving measures we can, I don't know that we could reach that grade, so it becomes more imperative that we have a PV installation before the cut-off date, because after it, it looks like we'd be served a double whammy.

As well as an undertaking to make energy renewable (20% by 2020 etc.:rotfl:) There is a requirement to get every home in the country onto an energy performance database.

This "whole house" approach is already a requirement in Germany.

I am under the impression that the energy performance certificate requirement (cost 50 - 100 GBP) and a level "C" or better result. will start next April ?

Am I talking rubbish ??

orrery

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

I am under the impression that the energy performance certificate requirement (cost 50 - 100 GBP) and a level "C" or better result. will start next April ?

Interesting - is there a self assessment utility somewhere?

John_Pierpoint

Not that I know of but just have a look on the web at similar houses for sale and their ratings.

In my opinion you have almost no chance of getting a Victorian house with solid walls up to class "C".

For example this deprived community, with "Victorian" cavity walls (yes really - note stretcher bond walls) were offered pretty massive subsidies to get a environmental make over - unfortunately some looked a gift horse in the mouth.
The result made no discernible difference to house values [STRIKE]and I've yet to see a "c" rated one.[/STRIKE] See update below.

Unfortunately there are [STRIKE]is only one property[/STRIKE]only five properties for sale currently - and one is probably a mortgage default.

Interesting postings - don't let the house price bulls see these:

ONE:
http://www.expertagent.co.uk/EstateAgentSoftware/EstateAgencyProperties.aspx?pid=cdd8e68c-ab6b-4706-bfd6-1d600ed572ca&aid={E2C4EC73-82BE-48F0-BEBC-9BFEA5058A81}

TWO:
http://www.pattinson.co.uk/Property-For-Sale-Cambois/83351

THREE:
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-35663519.html?backListLink=%2Fproperty-for-sale%2Fmap.html%3FlocationIdentifier%3DREGION%255E80755%26sortByPriceDescending%3Dfalse%23_includeSSTC%3Don%26auction%3Dfalse%26locationIdentifier%3DREGION%255E80755%26previousSearchLocation%3DNorth%2520Blyth%26radius%3D0.0%26searchLocation%3DNorth%2520Blyth%26searchType%3DSALE%26sortByPriceDescending%3Dfalse%26useLocationIdentifier%3Dfalse%26box%3D-1.57654%2C-1.46049%2C55.11088%2C55.17318%26popupPropertyId%3D35663519%26mapType%3DMap&fromMap=true

[For some strange reason I have to highlight and right click the expertagent link to get it to work]

I cannot see much difference between the three

Number one has the original built in fuel poverty heating. and a detailed EPC that demonstrates it has been on the market unloved since 2009.

Number two has an EPC that is very interesting as it claims to have mains gas central heating - my information is that there is no mains gas north of the river. [Anyone got a link to a gas mains map? (Like the track a t*rd web site; mind you that is a load of rubbish because my home can use it and I've got a septic tank)] So I think we are looking at instant fuel poverty propane cylinder.

UPDATE

FOUR:

Very interesting, here is a home that took all the grants and subsidies thrown at it. The happy owners also installed what the property !!!!!! programmes would have called "the wow factor" improvements......fancy kitchen and bathroom and a good make over of the other rooms.
Can this turn a sows ear into silk purse, when it comes to getting a record price for the street only time will tell ?
This property has solar thermal plus air tight detailing plus wall & roof insulation. Note the "over sized" radiators fed from the air source heat pump.
The assessor doing the box ticking has done a reasonable job of recognising what he was looking at.
The cost rating is C77 and the C02 is D65 on this mid terrace house.

The quick and dirty recommendation is to zone the house - probably a dangerous thing to do with a "trickle" heating system depending on heuristics?

The expensive recommendation is to install PV panels which could up the ratings to B87 & C76. ["To they that have shall be given"] Is there room for Solar thermal and solar PV ?

The assessor then has a bit of a brain storm (?) and recommends ripping out the new air source heat pump in order to qualify for the Renewable Heat Incentive - Alice in wonderland will be along to explain this reasoning in due course.

I know there is something of a cloud hanging over the effectiveness of air source heat pumps, which measure their Coefficient of Performance (CoP) in a different way to ground source pumps, but I understand these professionally installed pumps should be achieving a CoP of 2.4 (ie a 240% efficiency) from the electrical supply that is itself only say 35% efficient. Down next to the sea, the winter temperatures should be higher than those inland, with less ice producing days in the year to clog up the air source heat pump.

The only down side of these 4 example houses, is that since 2008 next to nothing has been selling in this community.

http://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/14672221

Does anyone know what those white things along the bottom of the front wall are? I was wondering if the under floor has been injected with polystyrene bead - a technique that theoretically works as long as the inside of the home is kept hot enough for the dew point to occur below the floor timbers (and as long as it does not "rot" your PVC wiring).

FIVE:

Heat pump and solar thermal but no "C" rating. End of terrace and that is the solar panel on the roof (TV dishes point 28 degrees east of South.)
http://www.propertywide.co.uk/buy/property/3-bedroom-house-in-cambois,ne24-for-gbp-49,950-ref-418468/#Close

jamesd

It may be possible to get a place up from C or D to B. Depends on the place and what you do. I'm looking at lifting a solid wall place with louvered windows and no central heating from D to B. C is easy: double glazing, central hearing, loft insulation raised from 100mm/none to 270mm, efficient lighting. B is pushing it, will take some form of solid wall insulation as well, though it's only short by a couple of points.

Barter

Thanks to all for your contributions. To comment on some of the points:

I can't feel confident that, were the installation to be delayed till after 12th December, thus triggering the lower FIT in April, they wouldn't also ask for the energy cert., which we can't achieve as far as I can see.

It's possible, I know, to insulate solid walls, but at what cost, financially, but also aesthetically - destroying the period features/character etc.

A victorian mid-terrace may well be able to get a C rating or above; less so a semi or detached property.

rogerblack

jamesd wrote: »

It may be possible to get a place up from C or D to B. Depends on the place and what you do. I'm looking at lifting a solid wall place with louvered windows and no central heating from D to B. C is easy: double glazing, central hearing, loft insulation raised from 100mm/none to 270mm, efficient lighting. B is pushing it, will take some form of solid wall insulation as well, though it's only short by a couple of points.

I'm looking at going from probably D or E to B+.

This involves a _MASSIVE_ amount of work.
The floors need to come up, lots of insulation round them.
The plasterboard needs to come out, lots of insulation behind it. (this also reduces the size of the rooms a bit of course - in my already small house, it means losing 5% of the area, which may reduce the vaue)
The flooring in the attic either needs to come up, or the roof needs to be insulated with massively thick insulation to get it to standard.
The windows need replaced, so does the door.
Because the room size has changed, the kitchen needs re-done, or at least hacked about a lot, and removing and replacing already dodgy units is probably a waste of time.

zeupater

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

As well as an undertaking to make energy renewable (20% by 2020 etc.:rotfl:) There is a requirement to get every home in the country onto an energy performance database.

This "whole house" approach is already a requirement in Germany.

I am under the impression that the energy performance certificate requirement (cost 50 - 100 GBP) and a level "C" or better result. will start next April ?

Am I talking rubbish ??

... and isn't this exactly what jimjames posted and rogerblack countered ... doesn't this mean that the counterpoint was wrong ???

HTH
Z

zeupater

rogerblack wrote: »

I'm looking at going from probably D or E to B+.

This involves a _MASSIVE_ amount of work.
The floors need to come up, lots of insulation round them.
The plasterboard needs to come out, lots of insulation behind it. (this also reduces the size of the rooms a bit of course - in my already small house, it means losing 5% of the area, which may reduce the vaue)
The flooring in the attic either needs to come up, or the roof needs to be insulated with massively thick insulation to get it to standard.
The windows need replaced, so does the door.
Because the room size has changed, the kitchen needs re-done, or at least hacked about a lot, and removing and replacing already dodgy units is probably a waste of time.

Hi

And all that for a piece of paper with some tick boxes which has been designed for assessment on a 'dumbed down' basis so that a scheme could be created for the relatively untrained to run .....

Personally, I'm taking little notice of the requirements since trying an EPC survey to see how the house rated some time back ....

Briefly, our property gets marked down on some minor areas which are rediculous and no account is taken for the fact that although built almost 30 years ago it was done using insulating blocks, high internal thermal mass and a pummace insulated slab (where's the tickbox for that one then?) .... add to this original fit cavity wall insulation with additional foil insulation on internal wall to garages/lofts etc (Nowhere to put that sir, but it's probably very good !), a minumum of 500mm of loft insulation ... 'only go a box for 270 sir so any more makes no difference, we have to go on what were told, and that is any more insulation just makes no sense' ... despite cutting the U-value of the loft to 0.09 from 0.16 .... a chimney, which is a chimney whatever it looks like, so it has a negative effect on the heating efficiency of the house because it is a hole, despite the fact that the hole is blocked with a great big chunk of metal with airflow control which can be closed called a log burner, which provides a good proportion of the total heatload and without the chimney would kill me and everyone else within the house .... then there's the requirement for the draught for the airflow for the logburner it's apparrently drawing a billion cubic metres of heated air through the house up the chimney, but there's no standard box to confirm that there's an external air feed under the floor directly into the stove ..... have I got an entrance lobby ? ... well no, but there's an integral covered porch .... "mmmm, that's not within the envelope of the house and isn't heated so it doesn't count sir" .... "and if I put a radiator in there and decorated it, would that help" ... "yes sir, it would then be an entrance lobby and your house would be more heat efficient by reducing air changes when someone's at the front door" ..... and then there's the box for the hot water cylinder .... "sorry sir, it doesn't matter that the airing cupboard is double insulated and you have added extra insulation to the tank, the tank will still loose heat at the same rate as what the manufacturer or my calculation says" .... final straw ..... :mad: ..... "you might as well leave then" .... pretty accurate as I remember it .....

Aren't governments really apt at creating completely useless red tape from nowhere ...

Never did find out what the performance banding was but have seen some links to DIY tools to get an idea ... might try one of them one day and compare it to my pretty accurate energy spreadsheet .....

HTH
Z

John_Pierpoint

I just love it - I wish I could get my place anywhere near yours - what do you get for total wood pellet heating:
That is still "F-" sir!!????
But they are from my own coppice!!????

Designed by townies for townies?

Out of interest is there a tick box for unshaded South facing windows and a negative tick box for similar windows facing North.
I can get away with my heating turned off for two extra months a year, when compare to friends with traditional suburban houses, with an orientation that depends on being on the odd or even numbered side of the street and offers a nice view of the neighbouring houses looking back at them?

John_Pierpoint

zeupater wrote: »

... and isn't this exactly what jimjames posted and rogerblack countered ... doesn't this mean that the counterpoint was wrong ???

HTH
Z

Yes and no.
I already agree that the post 12 December installations drop down to the new "half" rate next rate April, but are we SURE that some bureaucrat won't say ........and where is your energy performance certificate?

I haven't got a snowballs chance in hell of getting a "C" rating within 12 months.

Having read some of the above. I started wondering if the answer (for the purposes of ticking boxes not saving carbon) would be to bulldoze the place and start again.

Contentious observation, my detached home is (say) 150 sq meters of low room height accommodation. Some people living in brand new flats probably have a carbon footprint of 25 - 50% of mine.
Some people living in Edwardian homes of two or three times the size of mine, have a carbon footprint of three or four times mine.

Surely in a democracy all citizens should be offered the same subsidy per household? Or should that be per head? Extra per head for kids? Or per head for pensioners who need higher internal temperatures?