Multi-burner Stove - can the door be kept open?

HateLPG

John_3:16 wrote: »

Smouldering wood is not good as you have no flame to burn the smoke off.

Not quite true. When it comes to burning, not all woods are created equal. Provided you are using a well-seasoned and dry hardwood such as Ash, Beech, Cherry or Oak etc., you will get a nice controlled smoke-free smoulder. Some hardwoods, though can be dificult and smoky to burn. I've heard that Elm can be good, but personally I'm not convinced and try to avoid it as I've found it very poor in the past. Things like Birch burn OK, but tend to burn very quickly, without giving off a huge amount of heat. And then, of course, there is the smell of the smoke - some wood can be quite sharp and pungent. Even unpleasant. But if you are lucky enough to get hold of a nice fruitwood such as Apple or Cherry or you can get hold of some Cedar, they burn with a lovely "sweet" smoke.

I would say never use softwoods (e.g. pine, old pallets etc) other than as a kindling or establishing wood to get the fire started. They are great for starting the fire as they burn easily, but they burn too fast for sustaining a fire and do not give out much heat compared with good hardwoods. Also, unless it has been properly seasoned (which it rarely is) these sorts of softwood can produce a lot of flue-clogging resinous smoke if used in any quantity.

Greenfires

I've heard the "don't burn softwoods" argument so many times! How you do think the Scandinavians get on in their winters - they burn very little else apart from a bit of birch, because that's about all they have - and they're way in front of us in woodburning terms!

Properly seasoned softwood is a perfectly good fuel, and kilo for kilo will give about the same energy as hardwoods. Yes, it's lighter, and it won't last as long, but it makes a very good fire, and usually comes in cheaper than hardwood to make up for it's shorter life. It's also a lot easier for newcomers to get a grip of than something like oak, which many people struggle with. And apart from everything else - we're probably going to have to get used to it - as hardwood cord is getting harder to get and pricier with it, especially with the new biomass power stations coming online and buying up thousands of tonnes every year. The price of timber at roadside has gone through the roof in the past couple of years, and so has transport and all the fuel used in processing. Hopefully, the increase in demand for woodfuels will see a lot of neglected woodland being brought back into production, which will be a good thing for all of us as well as the planet, but it's going to be a year or two until supply starts catching up with demand.

Just out of interest my father in law burns nothing but pallet wood, which he gets for free, and has done for about three years now, and he has no problems at all with deposits in his chimney, and the stove is as clean as a whistle - I know because I sweep it!

Cheers,

Andy

suki1964

See as here in NI the only forests are softwood, we have no option but to burn softwoods or pay a fortune for imported hardwood - which kind of makes it not so eco friendly

Williwoodburner

I too have heard the "dont burn softwoods" argument but also disagree, I find softwoods burn fine if like any wood it is properly seasoned, and have never had a problem with tar or soot.

I like a mix of soft and hardwoods in the firebox as the softwood gives good flame and the hardwoods good heat.
One of the secrets of a good fire in my opinion is to load a good mix of logs then get a really good blaze going before closing the down the top air feed, letting the fire burn down until only glowing embers are left and then re-fueling.

Willie.

welda

HateLPG wrote: »

Compared with mains Gas, I would have to agree - a multifuel stove is a lovely thing to have, and there's nothing quite like a real fire to make a room seem cosy. But if you're connected to the gas grid, don't expect to see much, if anything, in the way of savings on your fuel bill

Respectfully HLPG, too many variables to really say one wont save much if on mains gas.

EG, I'm on mains gas, fitted stove to reduce gas bills, which this has substantially done. Modern GCH system within a 250+ yo ten roomed house. Has frost stat fitted, kicks in at 2 degree in extreme cold conditions, does a few cycle, then shuts down, which in turn, puts small amount of heat into rooms, where trv's are set at No3. Last winter bill DF in total for dec-jan-feb period was £150. And we do use heating system at full pelt via the timer when we feel we want it on, mostly mornings before work. Oh, for hot water too. Only two of us, no need to heat other parts of house, apart from times when we have visitors.

Since Oct 2008 install wood has been free to date and, I have suffice for this season. 5kw stove heats our three principle rooms, situated in dining, also heats kitchen and main lounge, when it gets too hot, we open door to hallway, let heat filter out there. During peak extreme cold periods, next morning, dining room has never been below 19c, purely due to 2' thick walls acting as a heat sink.

Always kettle of hot water simmering away on flat top stove, water used for brews and quick plate washes ect, Mrs W has also done the odd casserole, with dish simmering away on stove. For us, having a stove is like owning and running an addiction.

Downsides: I'm fortunate so far with wood supply, which still requires cutting/splitting to size, storage, fortunate there too, but a great deal of time is required dealing with these factors. Then after overall stove expenditure, come the ancillary pieces:

Axe-Maul-grenade-engine powered log splitter(I made it, little cost involved)-electric powered log splitter-petrol chainsaw-electric chainsaw (when cutting in workshop, no fume) the odd hire of a van to collect large amounts of free wood, which in turn, justifies ancillary gear above, or so I tell Mrs W!!

To summarize, for us and our circumstances, having stove has greatly reduced dependency on mains gas, which in turn overall and, taking in all the other costs outlined above, has turned out a good investment.

Can't get rid of it now, cause we are now addicted :j
:beer:

HateLPG

welda wrote: »

Respectfully HLPG, too many variables to really say one wont save much if on mains gas....

Since Oct 2008 install wood has been free to date....

Respectfully, welda [;)] having an alternative and FREE source of fuel is probably one variable too many to consider in the "general case".

The point I was trying to make (perhaps badly) is that the majority of those on the mains gas grid are unlikely to see significant savings (assuming they have to pay the going rate for wood).

However, the cost of using off-grid energy sources such as oil or LPG can be 2 to 3 times more than mains gas, so the equation shifts and a stove can easily provide savings, even when you have to pay market prices for your wood fuel.

HateLPG

Williwoodburner wrote: »

One of the secrets of a good fire in my opinion is to load a good mix of logs then get a really good blaze going before closing the down the top air feed, letting the fire burn down until only glowing embers are left and then re-fueling.

I'll agree to differ on the hardwood/softwood "debate", but I can't disagree with the rest of what you said

welda

HateLPG wrote: »

Respectfully, welda [;)] having an alternative and FREE source of fuel is probably one variable too many to consider in the "general case".

The point I was trying to make (perhaps badly) is that the majority of those on the mains gas grid are unlikely to see significant savings (assuming they have to pay the going rate for wood).

However, the cost of using off-grid energy sources such as oil or LPG can be 2 to 3 times more than mains gas, so the equation shifts and a stove can easily provide savings, even when you have to pay market prices for your wood fuel.

Your spot on HLPG, actually had a friend round tonight who uses kero & MF stove, stove door required a wee bit welder medicine ie: 90 amps with a 2.5 rod

He has a still under warranty oil burner for CH, cost 2K, which he installed himself, also new 1000 ltr plastic tank.

New NG line now passing his front door, mate is going to punt the lot, get best £££'s he can for tank/boiler, then connect to mains gas.

Hard to believe one can right off such a cost, knowing it cheaper to tap into the pipe passing his door, and end up quids in..........eventually!

That said tho, UK gov seriously needs to put gas conservation ahead of the shareholder, unless we want to be held to ransom by the Baltic States!

:beer:

A._Badger

welda wrote: »

Your spot on HLPG, actually had a friend round tonight who uses kero & MF stove, stove door required a wee bit welder medicine ie: 90 amps with a 2.5 rod

He has a still under warranty oil burner for CH, cost 2K, which he installed himself, also new 1000 ltr plastic tank.

New NG line now passing his front door, mate is going to punt the lot, get best £££'s he can for tank/boiler, then connect to mains gas.

Hard to believe one can right off such a cost, knowing it cheaper to tap into the pipe passing his door, and end up quids in..........eventually!

That said tho, UK gov seriously needs to put gas conservation ahead of the shareholder, unless we want to be held to ransom by the Baltic States!

:beer:

Shale gas, Welda - it's just not an issue, though I'm sure the hippies will do their best to inhibit its extraction.

As for the oil debate, I'm in two minds. I absolutely agree about LPG - especially the bottled variety. Mrs Badger and I cook using the damned stuff and every time we buy another bottle it has gone up - a lot. Moreover, I keep seeing people post on this forum saying they are able to buy 47kg bottles at up to £20 less than we are being charged here in Kent. There seems to be no consistency of pricing at all.

Oil...? I'm not so sure about oil. We have a reasonably new oil boiler and both buy and use carefully. As the price of oil has marched up, so has that of wood and coal and I'm just not sure that oil works out a very great deal more expensive than wood, assuming you have to pay the market price for buying it.

More expensive? Probably. Greatly more expensive? I'm not sure.

Greenfires

We live just to the north of the latest shale gas drilling tests Badger - and as you say, some of the greenies are up in arms about it, especially since a couple of "earthquakes" which have now been shown as likely to have been caused by the fracking process. I say "earthquakes" - and of course that's what the local papers called them - in reality they were very minor tremors that you probably wouldn't have even noticed if just going about your business. A seismologist from the British Geological Survey said they were very minor even by UK standards, and would not cause any damage to anything, and also that if the process continued, that they would not be likely to get any bigger.

The other "concerns" are over the fluid they use to fracture the rock, and the fact that thousands of litres of "toxic chemicals" will be transported by road locally. The chemicals used as friction reducers in the fluid are actually classed as non toxic, but when this was pointed out, the response was that the MSDS sheet said that if it got in your eyes you should rinse with lots of clean water, so it "obviously wasn't that safe". I did point out that the MSDS sheet for cooking oil says exactly the same things word for word, and we don't generally have a lot of concerns about having that "highly toxic chemical" around the house!

Personally, I'm fairly green myself I think - but to be honest, I think some of the "deep green" types tend to do themselves or the green movement no favours by their protests and camps and so on. A lot of them attend endless "workshops" and discussions about how something needs to be done, go to film presentations and discussion groups etc and think warm thoughts - but don't actually do anything in their daily lives that makes a blind bit of difference!

Anyway - that's another story I guess....

Andy