Southern Railway thieves charge me £20 penalty fare and lie.

geordieracer

It appears it is rocket science for you because you clearly are a bit thick. Again for the sake of repeating myself for the hard of reading here - Not all stations have ticket issuing facilities and not all stations are barriered so it is impossible to have a one rule fits all policy.

You also need to realise the difference between a train guard and a revenue protection inspector. Some guards cannot and are not allowed to issue PFs so they sell a ticket. They also sell a ticket if you are unable to buy one at the station due to it having no ticket issuing facilities.

Honestly im going to move on from here because you appear to have all the answers to the railways problems yet you have not one iota of how the whole operation works.

you carry on with your pathetic copying of stupid TV adverts. Your not worth the time nor effort anymore

Wig

geordieracer wrote: »

It appears it is rocket science for you because you clearly are a bit thick. Again for the sake of repeating myself for the hard of reading here - Not all stations have ticket issuing facilities and not all stations are barriered so it is impossible to have a one rule fits all policy.

You also need to realise the difference between a train guard and a revenue protection inspector. Some guards cannot and are not allowed to issue PFs so they sell a ticket. They also sell a ticket if you are unable to buy one at the station due to it having no ticket issuing facilities.

Honestly im going to move on from here because you appear to have all the answers to the railways problems yet you have not one iota of how the whole operation works.

you carry on with your pathetic copying of stupid TV adverts. Your not worth the time nor effort anymore

:wall:

Once again, you fail to understand the simple concept of

Step 1 Govt introduces legislation to deal with the inconsistency previously mentioned.

Step 2 Train companies, railtrack, whoever, take measures to ensure they can comply with the new laws.


And you wouldn't need barriered stations, you could have them if you wanted them like some are now. Passengers would know if they step on a train without a ticket = risk of getting penalty and no one will sell them a ticket onboard. It's up to the train co.s how they police the passengers.

Stigy

Wig wrote: »

Again, because you clearly don't seem to understand what I am saying. I propose that the train companies should have one rule and one rule only on this subject. Either they are

As Geordieracer has said, Train Guards sell tickets, and don't issue Penalty Fares, so that's why people buy tickets on trains. Guards are advised to issue Penalty Fare Warnings with each ticket sale, and/or stipulate the rules & regulations to the customer as they sell them a ticket.

Wig wrote:

The penalty fare system should only be allowed when the passenger exits the destination station without buying a ticket.

As I say time and time again, the Penalty Fare is a civil remedy for a criminal matter. It's meant as a detterant against fare evasion, and should theorhetically only be issued for Byelaw ticketing offences (and no, the TOC doesn't get the full £20 or whatever the PFN is worth, believe it or not...). If somebody walks past the last possible point at which they could have bought a ticket, the PF shouldn't apply as, although maybe opportunist, intent to avoid payment could quite easily be established, therefore not being a Byelaw offence anymore. These individuals should be reported by staff for consideration of prosecution at the Mags Court.

Wig wrote:

What I find unacceptable is the current system of never knowing what your rights are and being hit with penalty fares when like OP, you wanted to buy a ticket but couldn't, and then not given the chance to buy the ticket on the train. It should not be allowed to happen like this.

If you genuinely wanted to buy a ticket but couldn't, a PFN shouldn't be issued. Trouble is, some people say they "couldn't" buy a ticket, when really they mean "could have bought a ticket, but didn't want to wait in a queue at the ticket office, and the Guard didn't come and ask me for a ticket on the train". If there's no possible way in which a ticket could have been purchased, then a ticket should be sold. Staff have the ability to check the staut of Ticket Vending Machines and Ticket Offices as any given time.

geordieracer

Wig wrote: »

:wall:

Once again, you fail to understand the simple concept of

Step 1 Govt introduces legislation to deal with the inconsistency previously mentioned.

Step 2 Train companies, railtrack, whoever, take measures to ensure they can comply with the new laws.


And you wouldn't need barriered stations, you could have them if you wanted them like some are now. Passengers would know if they step on a train without a ticket = risk of getting penalty and no one will sell them a ticket onboard. It's up to the train co.s how they police the passengers.

No your failing to understand it is far more complex then that. And it shows with you mentioning Railtrack, a company that has ceased to exist for some years now.

You cannot have this rule for rural stations that have no ticket office or a TVM or even a pertis due to them getting vandalised all the time,so what then clever clogs - do they get penalised because they cannot buuy a ticket?

Honestly do yourself a favour and not bother posting on here because you really do know nothing of what your on about.

Wig

The people who know they will traveling in advance can choose to buy online or on the phone.

Others could choose to buy their ticket in newsagents/convienience stores/post offices/automatic ticket m/c sited in the nearest town centre.

Others should be given the option of a m/c in the railway station, unlike you, I don't believe it is beyond the wit of man to come up with an automated machine which is extremely hard to vandalise and which is protected by CCTV.

And in the extreme scenario if it is impossible to provide a m/c that is vandal proof then some stations would have to be designated as "buy ticket in advance" stations. Using the aforementioned selling points.

People like you make things more complex than they need to be because you have no vision. It is simply an execrcise in changing the mindset of the passenger. They will not board a train if they know they cannot buy a ticket once they have boarded (and they also know unless they can run away without getting caught they will be fined £500). There are numerous examples throughout history where the mindset of man has been changed so that they adopt different ways of doing things.

geordieracer

Wig wrote: »

The people who know they will traveling in advance can choose to buy online or on the phone.

Others could choose to buy their ticket in newsagents/convienience stores/post offices/automatic ticket m/c sited in the nearest town centre.

Others should be given the option of a m/c in the railway station, unlike you, I don't believe it is beyond the wit of man to come up with an automated machine which is extremely hard to vandalise and which is protected by CCTV.

And in the extreme scenario if it is impossible to provide a m/c that is vandal proof then some stations would have to be designated as "buy ticket in advance" stations. Using the aforementioned selling points.

People like you make things more complex than they need to be because you have no vision. It is simply an execrcise in changing the mindset of the passenger. They will not board a train if they know they cannot buy a ticket once they have boarded (and they also know unless they can run away without getting caught they will be fined £500). There are numerous examples throughout history where the mindset of man has been changed so that they adopt different ways of doing things.

Hahahahahaha a ticket machine that cant be vandalised? How much do you think they would cost then? Have you any idea how hard it is to break into the ones about now and yet people still do it http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/local/chiltern_railways_stations_hit_by_ticket_machine_thefts_1_611685 Buckinghamshire got hit hard over a long period of months - not just chiltern but FGW too and these machines were tested by burglers on their strength and it took them an hour. Ive seen the CCTV footage and these guys had massive 2 ft long crowbars and were extremly quick and professional and no matter what was designed to stop them they carried on doing it.

BTW whats a M/C?

And how on earth do you implement tickets to be bought @ Newsagents and convenience stores and post offices? The ticketing system is very complex and governed by rules - its not as simple as the LUL zonal system and never has been and never will be - would you want to spend the money to train every shopkeeper up on how to issue them - what routing is allowed and what trains their ticket was valid on? Thats going to add to the cost of a ticket that is.. Oh by lots of pounds.

And in the extreme scenario if it is impossible to provide a m/c that is vandal proof then some stations would have to be designated as "buy ticket in advance" stations. Using the aforementioned selling points.

But if this option is available and someone gets on the train knowing they cant pay and then they get off at the destination not paying because the train is too busy for the guard to check tickets - thats a fare lost to the TOC.Well if they are going to average out that lots of people will do this then they are going to stick that onto the price of a ticket also. My we are adding up the price of a ticket here arent we.

Or what about the old dear who likes using the train to see her friends but isnt comfortable using the phone to buy her ticket and her station doesnt have a ticket office or TVM to pick one up from either - are you now saying she cant buy a ticket from the nice man on the train? Not very nice customer service from you is it? Now you have totally stopped her/him from having a social life and getting out and about..

People like you make things more complex than they need to be because you have no vision. It is simply an execrcise in changing the mindset of the passenger. They will not board a train if they know they cannot buy a ticket once they have boarded (and they also know unless they can run away without getting caught they will be fined £500). There are numerous examples throughout history where the mindset of man has been changed so that they adopt different ways of doing things

Its this sort of comment which really pi55es me off. I dont make it complex. It already was. People do board trains when they know they cannot buy one on there, it happens daily in the hope they will not get caught and many of them dont for one reason or another. This is why the PF system was in place.

And I will reiterate as i showed you earlier - You must purchase a ticket before you board the train. Unless you are unable to do so through no issuing facilities available which you must then buy one at the first opportunity.


Its people like you who have no concept of what goes in to trying to run a railway that have all these bright ideas thinking your the first to have them and that they should be implemented because it would work. Believe me - they have tried most of them and the rest are just not feasible.

If you think you can do better - write to the TOCs and ATOC and passenger focus like i said before. They will reply pretty much with a resounding no thanks.

Wig

geordieracer wrote: »

BTW whats a M/C?

machine

And how on earth do you implement tickets to be bought @ Newsagents and convenience stores and post offices? The ticketing system is very complex and governed by rules - its not as simple as the LUL zonal system and never has been and never will be

You could put a ticket vending m/c in the store, or you could think outside the box by introducing alternative easier to issue fares.

But if this option is available and someone gets on the train knowing they cant pay and then they get off at the destination not paying because the train is too busy for the guard to check tickets - thats a fare lost to the TOC.

So no different from today then, except if they get caught on the train or trying to leave the station they will get a huge fine.

Or what about the old dear who likes using the train to see her friends but isnt comfortable using the phone to buy her ticket

Ticket m/c in alternative secure locations which she will be able to access or just change her mindset to accept using the phone.

Its this sort of comment which really pi55es me off. I dont make it complex. It already was. People do board trains when they know they cannot buy one on there, it happens daily in the hope they will not get caught and many of them dont for one reason or another. This is why the PF system was in place.

And I will reiterate as i showed you earlier - You must purchase a ticket before you board the train. Unless you are unable to do so through no issuing facilities available which you must then buy one at the first opportunity.

Your lack of vision and unwillingness to change is what keeps it complex. Passengers are misled by the fact that you sell tickets onboard trains, you encourage people to try to evade paying because you encourage them to board without a ticket.

No vision.

geordieracer

Wig wrote: »

machine
You could put a ticket vending m/c in the store, or you could think outside the box by introducing alternative easier to issue fares.
So no different from today then, except if they get caught on the train or trying to leave the station they will get a huge fine.

The cost of doing this is prohibitive - and what happens should the machine malfunction? Does the shopkeeper have access to it to try and fix?What if the money goes in but doesnt issue a ticket?Does the shopkeeper have to put up with the stick that they will get from the passenger?
Where does the money come from for these machines? The fares that you can buy from a ticket vending machine are easy to use - you select your destination,decide if you want a single or return and then select if you want to use a railcard?How much easier would you want it?

Wig wrote: »

Ticket m/c in alternative secure locations which she will be able to access or just change her mindset to accept using the phone.

And what sort of location would you put these machines in in the isolated stations that they may use? There are plenty of stations in palces that dont even have a shop let alone a pub.How do you change the mindset of people?Do you not thinkwe have tried with getting more TVMS at staffed stations to reduce the burden on the ticket office.

Wig wrote: »

Your lack of vision and unwillingness to change is what keeps it complex. Passengers are misled by the fact that you sell tickets onboard trains, you encourage people to try to evade paying because you encourage them to board without a ticket.

No vision.

You say this without actually knowing anything of what your going on about.You dont know whether or not people have thought of all these things at all - we have dont worry yourself - you just think you have all the answers but in the real world it is far more difficult and complex then you think it is.And thats the problem with people like yourself, you really think that the railway are not bothered with trying to make things easier for people when the opposite is generally true.

Whilst i admit the whole ticketing system is very complicated the average person who rocks up to a station to buy a ticket that day already has the price set for their journey on that day so it doesnt make it complicated at all. What do DO, is try and assist people so that where there are not ticket issuing facilities at their station they can board without paying a penalty for using that station.

You can claim there is no vision but your very very wrong. I can assure you that everything has been looked at and still is and where possible things are implemented to assist the passenger. This still does not distract that you must buy a ticket before you travel on a train if there are facilities there to purchase one.

Wig

geordieracer wrote: »

The fares that you can buy from a ticket vending machine are easy to use - you select your destination,decide if you want a single or return and then select if you want to use a railcard?How much easier would you want it?

Which contradicts your earlier objection of complicated fares confusing the newsagents. Simple reference book of destinations, "that'll be £5.00 please, have a nice day".

geordieracer

Wig wrote: »

Which contradicts your earlier objection of complicated fares confusing the newsagents. Simple reference book of destinations, "that'll be £5.00 please, have a nice day".

Actually it doesnt. You walk up to a ticket office for a fare to anywhere on just about any date(if available) and they will select the correct fare and route for you to take.

If your asking a shopkeeper to do this - then this will take time and assuming that the shopkeeper would be on commission to sell you your ticket they will more then likely put you on the higher fare so they get more.

Ticket offices have to be impartial on the ticket they sell you and it isnt as easy as just referring to a 'book'. The national fares manual is a big thick tome of what is and isnt valid and thats why we still have them to ensure that the routing and pricing is correct and the cheapest for the passenger.

As i said - you know nothing about it and are trying to make it look simple when it isnt.