Southern Railway thieves charge me £20 penalty fare and lie.

Entertainer

I was charged a £20 penalty fare last year on a Southern Railway train. What
happened was that I arrived at the station, there was a queue at the booking
office with some guy asking about train times oblivious to me standing behind him.
The train that I had to catch comes in 2 minutes early on the platform over the
bridge. I tried to get onto the platform to use a ticket machine and found that
the door was sealed shut so I had to go out of the station, round the back over
the bridge to get on the train.

I was only going two stops in total, one stop before I changed trains and could
get a ticket. I sat down near two ticket collectors (they were the "Revenue
Protection" people). One comes up to me and charges me a £20 penalty fare. I
explain politely how I was unable to buy a ticket but he doesn't want to know. He
takes all the money that I had which leaves my plans ruined and not enough money
even to get home.

Their own rules state that if you have to wait 3 minutes you can board the train
and buy it then. So they can't even abide by their own rules.

I have witnessed hundreds of people buying tickets on the train with no permits in
their possession. The man told me that they couldn't sell tickets to people on the
train when they were on board. I have also seen a person buy a ticket from two
Revenue Protection employees (not ticket collectors) and nothing was said about
why he didn’t have a ticket or a permit.

Everyone's equal and some are more equal than others- should be the new motto of
Southern Railway.

I send a letter in to the "Independant" appeal service (complete with the scales
of justice on their letterhead) and get a reply seven weeks later (!!) telling me
that my first class letter "arrived" 7 days after I posted it and conveniently
enough is now 2 days beyond the 21 day period so they wont even hear the appeal.
Oh and no correspondence will be entered into. No phone number either.

First class letters either arrive within 2 days or not at all. Do you think
they're being truthful?

So any idea what I do next, who can I appeal to now? Do I take County court action
against them?

Entertainer

Nothing? Figures.

Astaroth

Have you actually paid the fine? If you havent you cannot take any action against them as it is you that owes them and up to them to issue against you. If you have paid the fine then there would be the option there.

Where are you getting your 3 minutes rule from? I have never heard of it before at all.

My legal training is fairly limited in areas outside of the law of torts but if memory serves me correctly, under contract law it is the date of sending that is important and not the date of receipt unless the terms and conditions specifically state otherwise. You may be able to argue this point with the appeals service.

Wig

You hit the nail on the head, sue them in small claims court, you'll need advice on how to word your letters so speak to trading standards as to what your initial letters should say, and on what point of law you are to challenge them in the small claims court. When they see you are serious about small claims I bet they will pay up. If they don't then it will cost you 30 quid to file your claim, (but it's the principle of the thing isn't it, I would go ahead)......you get your 30 quid back when they lose....thus it cost them 50 quid to settle after you have filed the claim.

It will cost them much more to challenge your claim in court than it would to just refund you the 20 quid. That's why they will refund you your money before it goes to court - and before you have to file your claim.

I beleive there is a stage where you have filed your claim subject to finalising it and paying the fee, you can quote them the reference number online and they will see that you are serious.

wolvoman

Wig wrote:

You hit the nail on the head, sue them in small claims court, you'll need advice on how to word your letters so speak to trading standards as to what your initial letters should say, and on what point of law you are to challenge them in the small claims court. When they see you are serious about small claims I bet they will pay up. If they don't then it will cost you 30 quid to file your claim, (but it's the principle of the thing isn't it, I would go ahead)......you get your 30 quid back when they lose....thus it cost them 50 quid to settle after you have filed the claim.

It will cost them much more to challenge your claim in court than it would to just refund you the 20 quid. That's why they will refund you your money before it goes to court - and before you have to file your claim.

I beleive there is a stage where you have filed your claim subject to finalising it and paying the fee, you can quote them the reference number online and they will see that you are serious.

Good advice and spot on.

I'd never heard of this 3 minute rule before - does anyone have a link to some T&Cs about this?

Wig

S/he may be on about their waiting times targets
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:KB3-3bFfYL4J:www.southernrailway.com/main.php%3Fpage_id%3D145+southern+railway+3+minutes&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=2
Says nothing about being able to board the train

I'm still looking for where it says when it is acceptable to buy your ticket onboard.

from here
http://www.britainbyrail.co.uk/overseas_visitors.htm

Tickets for trains must be purchased at the station ticket office or ticket machine. The exceptions to this are at stations without ticket offices or machines, or when they are closed / out of order. In those circumstances you can purchase a ticket on the train.

It's not an authoratitive site, but the advice looks about right. In this case the ticket office was busy but still open, you would have to find out if it is acceptable to board a train which has arrived when the ticket office is busy, not to do so would mean missing the train.

From here
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/PublicTransport/RailTravel/DG_10036413

Even if the queues are long and you think you are going to miss your train, do not board without a valid ticket unless you have been given express permission by the station staff or see a notice advising you can buy tickets on board - otherwise you may be liable for a penalty fare.

So using your excuse, they will be likely to not have given a refund in the appeal, had they held an appeal. And they will likely win in the small claims - (so it becomes a gamble if you wish to call their bluff - it will still cost them more than 50 quid to attend court so they might just pay you to go away). They will only lose in court if you can show where it says you can board the train if you have had to wait 3 minutes or more and buy your ticket onboard.

Adviceline
http://www.railpassengers.org.uk/

gwapenut

http://www.railpassengers.org.uk/advice-and-information/question.asp?dsid=185

YOU ASKED: THE TICKET OFFICE QUEUE IS SO LONG I MIGHT MISS MY TRAIN. DO I HAVE TO BUY A TICKET?

Yes, you do. However, this does not apply if there is a notice saying that you can pay on the train.

Officially, you should not get on a train without a ticket even if there is a long queue. However, the general guidance is that you should not have to queue longer then five minutes in the peak and three minutes outside of the peak. If you do decide to board a train without a ticket in these circumstances it is advisable to get permission from station staff and/or seek out the conductor and explain the situation.

Voyager2002

I think there is someone called a 'passenger advocate' who might be able to help. Judging by the above posts, the train company acted correctly, so you would lose any court case (and so would pay the 50 pound court fee as well as the twenty pound penalty fare). However, you could complain that the ticket office was not functioning effectively AND the ticket machine was temporarily inaccessible, and as a result of this you lost the twenty pounds. It is possible that they might admit that they were at fault in the manner they ran the station and so refund your penalty fare, but I would not bet much on your chances.

caliston

Did you write to Southern Customer Services, explaining the full circumstances (with as much proof as you have)? In the first instance that's usually a good place to start: genuine people are likely to complain - they do it so it'll filter out some of those who were trying to dodge the fare and got caught.

Wig

Voyager2002 wrote:

I think there is someone called a 'passenger advocate' who might be able to help. Judging by the above posts, the train company acted correctly, so you would lose any court case (and so would pay the 50 pound court fee as well as the twenty pound penalty fare). However, you could complain that the ticket office was not functioning effectively AND the ticket machine was temporarily inaccessible, and as a result of this you lost the twenty pounds. It is possible that they might admit that they were at fault in the manner they ran the station and so refund your penalty fare, but I would not bet much on your chances.

The court fee would be £30
http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex50_0406.pdf

S/he would only lose
*if they can't substantiate this 3min wait pay onboard arguement put forward in the OP
*there wasn't a sign in the station saying paying on board is an option

The other point made is that if S/he bluffs them into thinking that a small claim will be made, they may refund the 20 quid before it gets to court. because it is the simplest way forward for Southern, if they do decide to fight it will cost them more than £20 to send a lawyer, so they will have to work out a way to *possibly* be awarded costs (see below) - but it's easier to just refund the £20 Or if it goes to court "Southern" wont turn up and will then lose by default. Because even if the OP loses in court Southern can't claim for costs so it would be cheaper for them to just refund the 20 pounds now.

But you must give them ample time to respond to your letters before proceeding to court, otherwise the court may award costs to the defendant "Southern" (even if you win).

There may also be something about the court finds the claim to be spurious or malicious then cost may be awarded - so the OP would have to be mindful of that if it is true (I don't know).

Entertainer

Thanks everyone. I'm not quite sure how to proceed next. There's that Passenger Focus group who say they can arbitrate but you have to contact the company first. With the seven week delay in the response of the "Independant" Appeal Service and the implacable answer it seems to me that they don't want to help, they basically just want to fob me off and hope I give up.

What got me was how that vampire and his mate picked on me as an easy target as a youngish male, didn't check anyone else's ticket they just stood there loafing around. I could have gone up to the end of the train and avoided them but I sat near them so it didn't look like I was avoiding a fare. I never get on a train without a ticket or a permit and yet I met an old guy at the next station who told me he never buys a ticket or a permit and always gets it on the train.