Southern Railway thieves charge me £20 penalty fare and lie.

Wig

geordieracer wrote: »

There is a passenger charter. There is even a national conditions of carriage which is available on line or from your local manned station.

There are also sings at every station that participates in the PF scheme to let you know of this and that you should buy a ticket before you travel.

There is obviusly a contradiction here, on the one hand you get a fine if you don't buy a ticket before boarding on the other there are ticket inspectors who sell tickets onboard trains and there are ticket sellers at waterloo selling tickets to people getting off the trains so they can go through the barriers to leave the station.

There may be a passengers charter but if it has failed to address this obvious contradiction by either ruling out fines or ruling out the selling of tickets at any point other than before boarding a train then that charter needs to be improved.

Livingthedream

Wig wrote: »

There is obviusly a contradiction here, on the one hand you get a fine if you don't buy a ticket before boarding on the other there are ticket inspectors who sell tickets onboard trains and there are ticket sellers at waterloo selling tickets to people getting off the trains so they can go through the barriers to leave the station.

There may be a passengers charter but if it has failed to address this obvious contradiction by either ruling out fines or ruling out the selling of tickets at any point other than before boarding a train then that charter needs to be improved.

The National rail conditions of carriage actually covers all the points you made in detail, the problem come with privatisation and the different business models train companies have; ie London Midland idea is 'Penalty fares' to make people learn from their mistakes by hitting them in the pocket, Scotrail's idea is allow people to travel with no tickets but catch them at the popular end stations by blocking every platform with ticket sellers and it's either pay for your journey or call the police.

The problem arises when one travels by multiple Train companies and gets caught out by not realising the rules have changed, prime example people travelling on East Coast trains then changing to FCC trains at Peterborough for a cheaper split fare to London. (Buy on train with East Coast, FCC is Penalty fare train)

I personnel like Scotrail's policy, I know it's easy to scam but at least they get some money without using the heavy handed penalty fare system.

geordieracer

Wig wrote: »

There is obviusly a contradiction here, on the one hand you get a fine if you don't buy a ticket before boarding on the other there are ticket inspectors who sell tickets onboard trains and there are ticket sellers at waterloo selling tickets to people getting off the trains so they can go through the barriers to leave the station.

There may be a passengers charter but if it has failed to address this obvious contradiction by either ruling out fines or ruling out the selling of tickets at any point other than before boarding a train then that charter needs to be improved.

Its not a 'fine' its a penalty fare. And im someone who travels to Waterloo quite a few times and ive never seen anyone sell them a ticket - ive always seen them hand out penalty fares to passengers.

You cant rule out the selling of fares to some passengers on some trains as some stations do not have the facility to issue tickets.Either they have no machine there or the machines or out of order.

It is not as clear cut as you may think it should be, but thats how it stands. Now not every TOC uses the PF system and it is a bit flawed but there isnt really a decent alternative at the moment unless you just prosecute everyone.

Wig

What I am talking about is a mandatory system that gives passengers on all trains the same rights. I think it it should be clear cut, there is either a right to board without a ticket or there isn't on all trains. If there is that right, then there needs to be a solution for all trains and destinations for passengers who board without a ticket to be able to buy a ticket at the correct price without penalty that could be by going to the ticket office at the destination. The penalty fare system should only be allowed when the passenger exits the destination station without buying a ticket.

What I find unacceptable is the current system of never knowing what your rights are and being hit with penalty fares when like OP, you wanted to buy a ticket but couldn't, and then not given the chance to buy the ticket on the train. It should not be allowed to happen like this.

And I don't think its exactly rocket science to make all train companies follow the same rules whatever they may be in a new passenger charter.

geordieracer

Wig wrote: »

What I am talking about is a mandatory system that gives passengers on all trains the same rights. I think it it should be clear cut, there is either a right to board without a ticket or there isn't on all trains. If there is that right, then there needs to be a solution for all trains and destinations for passengers who board without a ticket to be able to buy a ticket at the correct price without penalty that could be by going to the ticket office at the destination. The penalty fare system should only be allowed when the passenger exits the destination station without buying a ticket.

What I find unacceptable is the current system of never knowing what your rights are and being hit with penalty fares when like OP, you wanted to buy a ticket but couldn't, and then not given the chance to buy the ticket on the train. It should not be allowed to happen like this.

And I don't think its exactly rocket science to make all train companies follow the same rules whatever they may be in a new passenger charter.

Lets get something right from the start. The OP on this ages old thread was given the opportunity to buy the ticket for their journey - they chose not to. Read the OP again. They didnt want to wait around so they got on the train without buying a ticket before hand. It quite clearly states this in the National conditions of Carriage which are available online or at your station. I shall quote them for you so you dont have to do too much hard work this evening.

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make. If you travel in a train:

(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:

(i) at the station where you started your journey:

there was no ticket office or no ticket office was open
and
there were no self-service ticket machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order
and
in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order
or
(ii) the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose train you are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train. In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.

Special arrangements may apply if you are disabled. You will find details of these arrangements in each Train Company’s ‘Disabled People’s Protection Policy’.

For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, "full single fare or full return fare" means the highest priced single or (if requested by the passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making.

Does that bolded part make it absolutely crystal clear that you MUST buy a ticket before you travel? All train companies must follow the same rules as set out in the NCoC. They also have their own passenger charters which are available at every station that belongs to the TOC and online.


Now the best way to make sure that everyone buys a ticket before they board is to barrier each and every station in the whole country that way people HAVE to pay or they cant get on the train. The problem there is that a lot of stations do not have either the space nor anything else to make putting in barriers a viable prospect so they are never going to get them. Barriers cost a lot of money and where do you think that extra money will come from?Shareholders? Not a chance - it will come through ticket rises.And we have enough of them already.

You say people should be ok to pay at their destination? This is an impracticable idea as again these stations would have to be manned heavily so that they could get people to pay quickly and then on to their journey - where would these staff come from? Who would pay for them? This would lead to higher fare evasion then we have already because its impracticable.

Its very easy for people outside the business to say this,this and this should happen, but from within when just about everything has been tried already then the PF system on the TOCS that use them seems to be the only way.

For those who dont use the PF system like Virgin or EC then its an UPFN or in the cases that are always in the news people are made to pay for a whole new ticket for their journey which ends up costing a whole heap more..

If you have any bright ideas about how it should work to keep fare evasion down then please email ATOC and all the relevant bodies - they would've thought of it already and probably put it to one side as it wont work.


And just to reiterate - All TOCS have to abide by the NCoC. If they dont they get in trouble

Livingthedream

Wig wrote: »

And I don't think its exactly rocket science to make all train companies follow the same rules whatever they may be in a new passenger charter.

I think you right in principle, however, Train companies do follow the rules, it's just that there's so many rules and the NRcoc covers both penalty fares and boarding a train without a ticket.

Both systems are flawed but work to each Train companies advantage ie take Virgin trains, get on the wrong train with an Advance ticket from Manchester to London and the price goes from £11.50 to £139. Get a Penalty fare on South West trains and it's £20 and I think you find SWT issue more Penalty fare than Virgin's new onboard tickets but Virgin makes just as much from the difference in the price of the new ticket.

TBH If I was a fare dodger I would love to get a Penalty fare for £20 for a trip from London to Glasgow or pay the difference between ticket prices from Chessington to London about £5ish or nothing if I didn't get stopped.

So Penalty fares work for one Train company but not another and likewise the same for new onboard ticket issuing, bad system but the best there is at the moment.

geordieracer

LTD - Your a bit wrong with the PF there - The scheme is £20 PF OR twice the single fare to the next station - which ever is greater.

So if you got on a train to manchester it would be twice the single fare to the first stop(not watford IIRC as its pick up only) which would be bloody expensive and more then the single walk up fare to that station. Then you would have to pay to complete your journey to manchester

Livingthedream

geordieracer wrote: »

LTD - Your a bit wrong with the PF there - The scheme is £20 PF OR twice the single fare to the next station - which ever is greater.

It was just a random journey I pulled from memory, I should have looked it up but it was late and was only using it as an example to serve a point that Penalty fares don't work on every railway.

:beer:

geordieracer

:beer: nah thats cool.. just with the £20 option was all i was pointing out..

Wig

geordieracer wrote: »

Does that bolded part make it absolutely crystal clear that you MUST buy a ticket before you travel? All train companies must follow the same rules as set out in the NCoC. They also have their own passenger charters which are available at every station that belongs to the TOC and online.

Again, because you clearly don't seem to understand what I am saying. I propose that the train companies should have one rule and one rule only on this subject. Either they are

A. Allowed to insist all customers have a ticket before boarding and not allowed to sell tickets at any point except the point of departure before boarding. And are allowed to impose penalties on people who board without tickets.
or
B. Not allowed to insist on tickets prior to boarding and are allowed to sell tickets to customers at any stage on their journey.

That's it. One rule or the other, it's not rocket science it can be easily implemented one way or the other, I don't care which one you prefer or the train companies or government choose to implement.... But it should be one or the other. It would be a simple matter for the installment of ticket machines in all stations (should they choose option A) and there is also the internet and telephone as alternative methods of buying tickets from unmanned stations but all 3 methods should be mandatory. Obviously the penalty for travelling without a ticket would have to be looked at and possibly raised to something like £500 - possibly (and possibly not) on a sliding scale depending on what sort of route the train is taking where the max £500 miight apply to long distance London to Manchester, and the shortest routes having a £100 penalty.

Then everyone knows where they stand and there will not be any cases of rough justice as handed out to the OP whom I quote:

OP wrote:

I have witnessed hundreds of people buying tickets on the train with no permits in
their possession. The man told me that they couldn't sell tickets to people on the
train when they were on board. I have also seen a person buy a ticket from two
Revenue Protection employees (not ticket collectors) and nothing was said about
why he didn’t have a ticket or a permit.

I hope this has made it absolutely crystal clear to you what I have said from the start.

There's no point quoting a rule that says all passengers must have a ticket before boarding. Because that rule is undermined by the sale of tickets onboard trains, and thus it undermines the rights of passengers. Govt makes legislation, train companies have to get their act together to abide by it.