kilt order cancellation rights????

arcon5

unholyangel wrote: »

Yes. As i stated previously........even if custom made items are exempt from the unconditional right to cancel, they are still covered by the rest of the DSR's in that contractual information must be supplied. Some items are exempt from DSR and some only part of the DSR's apply......with custom goods the ONLY thing that doesnt apply is the unconditional right to cancel.

But regulation 7 ('Information required prior to the conclusion of the contract') seems to indicate they don't have to supply info on your rights to cancel in ops case.

7.—(1) Subject to paragraph (4), in good time prior to the conclusion of the contract the supplier shall—
[snip]
(vi)the existence of a right of cancellation except in the cases referred to in regulation 13;

unholyangel

arcon5 wrote: »

But regulation 7 ('Information required prior to the conclusion of the contract') seems to indicate they don't have to supply info on your rights to cancel in ops case.

That means they're supposed to tell them that they have the right of cancellation(ie you have 7 working days from contract conclusion). Not that they dont have to tell you if you do not have the right of cancellation (ie once a order has been accepted and work has started, it cannot be cancelled). If you notice it says existence of rights, not "what your cancellation rights are".

But for arguments sake, I dont believe the order IS personalised. They did not create this tartan solely for the OP's SO. It already existed. He was simply choosing from preset options. Nor have they asked about measurements. They've likely contacted the mill and asked for a standard measurement of cloth to be cut.

And of course, under the DSR's:
the supplier shall inform the consumer in writing or in another durable medium which is available and accessible to the consumer that, unless the parties agree otherwise, he will not be able to cancel the contract under regulation 10 once the performance of the services has begun with his agreement.

thistledome

Found this about returns on their website:

Returns

We will accept returns up to 7 days (UK) and 21 days (other countries) after they have been received. Please email us through the contact us section to arrange returns. We will only accept back goods which have no sign of wear and tear and which arrive at our offices in as new condition. Once the package is received we will refund the value of the goods.

If they are immovable on asking you to pay for the cloth that's been cut (that was very quick for cloth to be cut btw!), just ask them if they really want to go to the trouble of making you an unwanted kilt which you will immediately return for a refund within their 7 day refund terms.

EDITED........ but that's just my opinion and not necessarily a fact.

hellsbells120780

Hi All, Thank you for your help thus far. Can I ask that you remove your links to the trader since we are still in negotiations and if this discussion is found the negotiation may be even more limited.
But yes, they are trying it on. I sent an email yesterday to confirm cancellation of the stock items and asked for a refund for these whilst we continued to discuss what we were going to do about the kilt. The email I received back said we could have a refund for the stock items but also stated that now there is a £35 express charge on the Kilt and a £15 delivery charge on the kilt. 'Unrefundable' order now totalling £419. He said once we email back and confirm we are going ahead with the Kilt (he asked for my partner's measurements), then I would get the refund for the stock items.
He said they were waiving an administration charge(!). IN fact, I'll just quote it here, I hope that is OK?

We will cancel all but the made to measure aspect of your order (ie the stock items) as requested.

This means that you will be paying the £369 plus the £35 express charge which we have incurred as you originally required the Cilt in less than 4 weeks. As stated on our website. The only other charge will be a £15 courier delivery charge for the finished Welsh Cilt.

Total charge is £419.00

We will not be charging an administration charge only as you have agreed to continue with the Cilt order. We will not be charging for the courier delivery and collection of the St David’s outfit either.

Please let us know when you have the measurements for us to work with or if you need assistance with this.

We will require your reply by email to confirm this is acceptable to yourself and X, the refund of the stock items will then be organised for you.

SO the story with that is, they originally thought we were getting married on 11/11/11 so they were making the effort to speed everything up, significantly including hassling my partner into making a decision within a 24 hour period with numerous phonecalls, we were just thinking about getting married on 11/11/11. Wedding is June 2012.

I get the impression from his note/reading between the lines, he is trying to say if we don't go ahead with the Kilt order they're going to charge me an 'administration' charge and courier fees for the outfit they said they'd send up for free to convince us to continue with the order.

Finally, we found the order ticket yesterday which has terms and conditions on the back but only relevant to hire items, not purchases. Then it says "a full list of our wedding terms and conditions will have been provided if you have booked a wedding with us. Please let us know if you require a further copy or if you need to discuss any of our terms."

We have not seen any terms and conditions relevant to our order yet.

Thanks in advance.

hellsbells120780

So, my understnading thus far is that I cannot cancel the made to measure aspect of the order because it was ordered as a made to measure item? Is this correct?

I would like a possible way forward where I can get them just to charge us for the cloth maybe (without the administration and couriers fees etc), because we don't want the kilt at all now probably. Well, I'd like a way forward where we don't get charged for anything but that seems almost impossible. Also, I went to a kiltmakers in town yesterday and they confirmed that they have just cut a standard measure of cloth which could be used for another person. I get the feeling we are dealing with a tough trader here who interprets that he is fully covered by traders/consumer rights.

unholyangel

hellsbells120780 wrote: »

So, my understnading thus far is that I cannot cancel the made to measure aspect of the order because it was ordered as a made to measure item? Is this correct?

I would like a possible way forward where I can get them just to charge us for the cloth maybe (without the administration and couriers fees etc), because we don't want the kilt at all now probably. Well, I'd like a way forward where we don't get charged for anything but that seems almost impossible. Also, I went to a kiltmakers in town yesterday and they confirmed that they have just cut a standard measure of cloth which could be used for another person. I get the feeling we are dealing with a tough trader here who interprets that he is fully covered by traders/consumer rights.

No, you're dealing with a moron by the sounds of things.

They CANNOT charge an administration fee for any returns made under the DSR's. They CANNOT make you pay for the return of the items unless they have provided you this information in durable form prior to the contract being concluded. If they have not informed you of this, technically your only legal obligation is to make the items available for collection and they (not you) are liable for the costs. They should also provide a full refund (including any delivery charge you paid - although if you paid for express/next day delivery i believe they only have to refund you the standard rate...someone should be able to confirm/dispute this for you) within 30 days.

As for the kilt, i still think they havent followed the DSRs (by not informing you of your right - or lack of one - to cancel). They didnt have the required information to make it a personalised item. You can check this with consumer direct though - but make sure you mention that you werent informed you wouldnt be able to cancel. Technically atm you've given them a order for a kilt in a x tartan design. Not a kilt in a x waist x length in a x tartan.

hellsbells120780

OK. So, I haven't explained this, but basically, we haven't received any goods at all yet. All we have received by mail is one couriered outfit for my partner to try. Which we have duly returned. We have a £721 charge sitting on his credit card. Which they are currently saying they would like £419 or and they will give back the rest.

They will claim that the seller told my partner that he can't cancel on the phone, once the cloth was cut. So, was that informing him? Either that and he can't remember or it was implied. What does it mean for us if they haven't followed the DSRs? Thank you so much. I belive you are a holy angel!

arcon5

OK. So, I haven't explained this, but basically, we haven't received any goods at all yet. All we have received by mail is one couriered outfit for my partner to try. Which we have duly returned. We have a £721 charge sitting on his credit card. Which they are currently saying they would like £419 or and they will give back the rest.

They will claim that the seller told my partner that he can't cancel on the phone, once the cloth was cut. So, was that informing him? Either that and he can't remember or it was implied. What does it mean for us if they haven't followed the DSRs? Thank you so much. I belive you are a holy angel!

unholyangel wrote: »

No, you're dealing with a moron by the sounds of things.

They CANNOT charge an administration fee for any returns made under the DSR's. They CANNOT make you pay for the return of the items unless they have provided you this information in durable form prior to the contract being concluded. If they have not informed you of this, technically your only legal obligation is to make the items available for collection and they (not you) are liable for the costs. They should also provide a full refund (including any delivery charge you paid - although if you paid for express/next day delivery i believe they only have to refund you the standard rate...someone should be able to confirm/dispute this for you) within 30 days.

As for the kilt, i still think they havent followed the DSRs (by not informing you of your right - or lack of one - to cancel). They didnt have the required information to make it a personalised item. You can check this with consumer direct though - but make sure you mention that you werent informed you wouldnt be able to cancel. Technically atm you've given them a order for a kilt in a x tartan design. Not a kilt in a x waist x length in a x tartan.

Yes but where does it state they are supposed to inform the consumer they do not have the right to cancel? The information in the DSRs states they are only supposed to provide cancellation information where section 13 doesn't apply.

However you choose to look at it, op purchased personalised goods, it just happens that the specification (ie size) it was to be manufactured to will be provided at a later date. Although op could fail to provide these & therefore breach contract and only be liable for provable losses (which I don't think the material that has been cut can be counted as a loss as it can still be used to fulfil other orders).

hellsbells120780

Um...I think the delivery was going to be free because it was a big order.

unholyangel

arcon5 wrote: »

Yes but where does it state they are supposed to inform the consumer they do not have the right to cancel? The information in the DSRs states they are only supposed to provide cancellation information where section 13 doesn't apply.

However you choose to look at it, op purchased personalised goods, it just happens that the specification (ie size) it was to be manufactured to will be provided at a later date. Although op could fail to provide these & therefore breach contract and only be liable for provable losses (which I don't think the material that has been cut can be counted as a loss as it can still be used to fulfil other orders).

I already answered this. Furthermore, whether they are made to the customers specifications or not all depends on whether standard measurements are used or exact measurements. As stated before, a medium kilt in x tartan wouldnt be excluded under section 13. Technically at present, OP has only ordered a kilt in x tartan. They have not ordered a kilt in 33.5 waist in a x tartan. Selecting from options available is NOT making it to the customers specifications.

OP put your complaint in writing and send it recorded delivery. Have you mentioned the exact timeline on here (i cant remember)? When it was ordered, what exactly was said on the phone, when you first contacted them to cancel etc?