Structural Engineers Report -Recommended - What if the vendor offers to pay for?

norbet

After having our offer accepted on a 60/70s semi, we've paid for a full buildings survey, we're still waiting for the full report, but the initial valuation has come back. This outlines the obvious things about the property, including the valuation (which was the price we offered and had accepted) but states that the property has suffered movement and that within the scope of the appointment they cannot state categorically that the movement is longstanding & non-progressive. It goes on to recommend that a qualified structural engineer be appointed to report as necessary. The lender has since requested this structural report in writing.

I've since spoken to the surveyor, that did the valuation, who said he could conduct the structural report on our behalf, but that in his opinion although the movement is minor and looks to have stopped, he could not be certain - he suggested that without monitoring for a period of time there's no way to be certain. In his view, he, nor any other surveyor/engineer could be. In essence he was saying "save your money" - which was admirable.

So we took the view of "if in doubt...." and explained this to the estate agents, we provided them with a copy of the valuation and explained the conversation we'd hade with the surveyor. They then said that this is not uncommon and that the surveyor is most likely just covering themselves. They've suggested get a second opinion.
We explained that we've already spent a significant amount in arrangement fees, solicitor costs and full survey fees and that in light of the surveyors comments we felt that spending yet more on a structural report could be wasting more money. We explained that we'd probably need to start looking at other properties.

The agents have since come back and asked if we'd (and our lender) be open to the suggestion of the vendors paying for the structural survey, using a local surveyor. Our lender has confirmed we could use any approved (RICS) structural engineer, it doesn't have to be one of the lenders choice. So from that aspect it seems ok, and, if the vendors survey/report confirms what the surveyor who valued the property says about uncertainty on the structural movement, we walk away - simple.
But, if the vendor appointed report conflicts with the previous surveyor that we've spoken to, and essentially says the property is ok - we've a major dilema.

We've a concern with this approach suggested by the estate agents. The big question is - could we rely on a structural survey appointed and paid for by the vendors - the worry being that if we've not appointed (and paid for) such a survey we'd be unable to rely on it in future should there be any problems.
It could be possible that the lender is happy with the vendor paid survey results (if all clear) and we could progress with purchase, but where would we stand if in future there are problems? Would it be possible to get the vendor appointed engineer to state that we (as the purchasers) could rely on his/her report? Is there a legal/contractual issue here? We'll try asking our solicitor for advice on this matter, but if anyone here has any input or experience in this area we'd be grateful.

I'm inclined to say go ahead let the vendors get a structural report done - if only to confirm what the first one has said, but with a caveat that we'll not be obliged to progress with the purchase should the two views conflict. (We could always get a 3rd opinion, but where do we draw the line?)

Advice gratefully welcomed as we're not sure how/if to proceed here.

N

G_M

I'm bemused by your surveyor offering to do the report - a surveyor is not (usually) a structural engineer.

Be that as it may, I would only take up the vendor's offer is
a) you choose your own SE
b) you get the price agreed and instruct the SE
c) the vendor passes the fee to you and you pay the SE

That way the contract is between you and the SE and the vendor has no relationship with the SE

norbet

Sounds sensible GM, thanks for the advice.
Perhaps I'd done the chap who did the valuation an injustice, I'm assured he's a qaulified structural engineer (MRICS) that also does valuations and buildings surveys (sign of the times perhaps)?
Anyway we'll check with our solicitor and put such terms to the agents, if they're happy to go with that approach it sounds ok.
Once again, thanks!

kingstreet

I would now take this matter away from a surveyor and hand it over to a structural engineer. It's possible if you continue on your present path the surveyor will not confirm the property is free of the chance of future movement. In those circumstances, he might still request a structural engineer's report as trial holes may be required.

Use this tool;-

http://www.findanengineer.com/

to find a structural engineer in the area. It's possibly cheaper too.

norbet

Thanks Kingstreet, I've had a look at that site -there are a number of structural specialisms to choose from in the list - would it be Structural inspection/appraisal that I'd need to search for or Domestic Subsidence/Underpinning?

I must admit I'm confused by the difference between a surveyor/structrual engineer - I was under the impression the chap who'd inspected the property in the first instance was both - is that possible? He'd mentioned when speaking to him that even with soil analysis, trial holes it's unlikely that without monitoring over time there could be no certainty the movement had ceased.

I note G_M's advice about the structrual engineer being one of our choosing, the estate agent was suggesting they could organise one. I'm not fussed either way so long as they're suitably qualified and we can rely on their report (for mortgage/insurance purposes).
I suppose the most important thing is that the contract between us (the prospective purchasers) and the structrual engineer, hence why we'd need to pay them?

kingstreet

The category is "Surveying: Domestic Property."

I suppose it's possible for an ARICS/FRICS Chartered Surveyor to also have an engineering qualification and be a member of the Institution of Structural Engineers (MIStructE) as well.

As you've identified, if the vendor pays for it, it isn't your report. However, I can't see any reason why you couldn't go halves, get two copies with both your names on. In that way, the vendor has a copy should you decide to pull out and you have a copy to evidence what you did should you sell the property later.

norbet

Excellent, thanks Kingstreet. We've checked with our solicitor and lender and they are happy for the vendors to instruct & pay for a structural engineers report, but on the condition that the report must be conduted in our (the purchasers) names - otherwise it'll be in the vendors names and they'll not consider it.
If it's possible to have it conducted on behalf of both purchaser and vendor then it may be more paletable to the vendors, but I'm going with what the bank have said.
I'm still a little concerned that if the matter ever had to go to court we could be disadvantaged if the report was paid for by the vendors, despite being in our names.
I've put this to the agents and have indicated that we'd be happy to pay and for the vendors to reimburse us.


Thanks!

sonastin

It shouldn't matter who is paying for it. The important thing is that the engineer is aware that you, in your position as [STRIKE]vendor[/STRIKE]purchaser, intend to rely on his professional advice and having your name as the client pretty much tells him that. Your landlord could pay for it in order to speed up evicting you from your current residence and it wouldn't matter one jot to the engineer.

There is a lot of cross-over between surveying and engineering when it comes to existing properties. The institution that an individual chooses to belong to gives an indication of his primary training and expertise. Look for the Institution of Structural Engineers (MIStructE) rather than the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (MRICS). A member of Institution of Civil Engineers (MICE) is also worth considering as the initial background for ICE and IStructE is similar and the career path may have just evolved towards structures after joining the ICE.

kingstreet

sonastin wrote: »

in your position as vendor, intend to rely on his professional advice and having your name as the client pretty much tells him that. Your landlord could pay for it in order to speed up evicting you from your current residence and it wouldn't matter one jot to the engineer

I thought the OP was purchasing a new property and the structural engineer's report was being done on the purchase? I'm confused.

sonastin

kingstreet wrote: »

I thought the OP was purchasing a new property and the structural engineer's report was being done on the purchase? I'm confused.

you're right. My brain said "purchaser", my fingers typed "vendor"! Will go back and edit!

Jamiemac

What was the outcome here OP?