Time off for Eid

Oldernotwiser

scheming_gypsy wrote: »

If you want your shifts changing because of a religious festival you ask nicely and try to help resolve the situation. If you turn around and say 'i'm having the time off anyway' then why should anybody help you?

I do wonder whether some people are misinterpreting this statement as a threat. I have Orthodox Jewish friends who wouldn't be able to work on particular days and could say this as a statement of fact rather than as a threat.

I think that if you have no faith, or are a believer in a religion that doesn't lay down these sort of rules, it can be hard to understand the prohibitions that can apply to believers in faiths where there are definite strictures.

Oldernotwiser

Quite informative.

http://www.northgatearinsoemployerservices.com/essentialnews/2-employment-law-news/24-accommodating-religious-holidays

Jarndyce

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I do wonder whether some people are misinterpreting this statement as a threat. I have Orthodox Jewish friends who wouldn't be able to work on particular days and could say this as a statement of fact rather than as a threat.

I think that if you have no faith, or are a believer in a religion that doesn't lay down these sort of rules, it can be hard to understand the prohibitions that can apply to believers in faiths where there are definite strictures.

Precisely. At no point has it been said that the employee made an explicit threat - that has been people's interpretation - this thread being typified by the worst interpretation possible being placed on such statements.

apples1

magenta22 wrote: »

Firstly may I ask you.... what do you do when someone is off sick? you must cope somehow then with the staff shortage.

When someone is off sick we are down by two people if one person is also on holiday. Luckily we don't have too much sickness. This is not ideal and customer service suffers. However if we give two people holiday and one goes sick we really really are in trouble - we just hope customers won't hold it against us and take their custom elsewhere. We cant afford a back up to a back up - we would not have a viable business if we employed two extra staff every day.

I think that your one person off on holiday at one time is a little out-dated, however and why should the longest serving people have priority over dates?

Not sure where outdated comes in.... Surely the number of people that can be off at once depends on the size of the business. With only six staff (who all need a day off somewhere in the seven days too) I would be a fool to give two people holiday some weeks and none others. (The only exception to this is Christmas when it is so dead anyway I am happy to only have one or two in work). I have already asked for suggestions as to a better method. This was a genuine request as we tried so hard to come up with the fairest system we could think of and I am rather shocked by the critisim of it. As I have explained the longest serving person only gets to request two weeks before passing it on and so on then it goes back to the top so with only six staff the maximum holiday already taken from the year if you are bottom of the list is ten weeks - that does give them 42 other weeks to choose from!

I have worked at a very small company with staff of 6 - there were times where two of us wanted holiday which overlapped - we all booked the holiday before booking off work so that you then have the dates - they coped.

The trouble is what you refer to as "coping" would mean we lose customers and whilst we are proud to be making it through the recession we can't afford to let poor planning lose us customers and business as then the six employees would be out of a job.

Sometimes though some people are scared to ask for time off for what ever reason. You may think you are a good employer but are you actually as approchable as you think? Can you ask him to take it as unpaid and get a temp in to cover? perhaps the part-timers could do a little overtime?

Well my staff seem to think I am approachable - I am sure I am not perfect but I am firm but very fair. Sadly it is not the sort of job a temp can do. These people have training and experience to do this work. The part timers are students who can help weekends and college holidays to answer the phone etc but the core work needs expertise.


A fairer system could be first come, first served as someone else also suggested.

I thought about first come first served but how do you measure first..... If we release the 2012 holiday for booking on 1st Nov at 9am then they would be waiting for me to arrive at work with their booking request forms!! How do I say who was first? Do they start camping outside with sleeping bags royal wedding style to be first?!! It sounds crazy but I honestly could not think of a fair way of calling first!

I assume that you only employ one person who has children - what do you do in the school holidays?


Two of the six staff have children - given that school holidays are about 14 weeks per year and they get four to five weeks annual holiday (plus bank holidays) not overlapping due to school holidays is not an issue - they cant have all 14 weeks school hols off!

Why do you 'release' holiday dates, surely all your staff know the holiday year runs from xxx to xxx or do you change it every year?

We don't change it every year but I once had someone ask to book Christmas week off for the next five years!!! So we have to have a start date or "release" date when holiday becomes available for booking. Even me (miss planner!) can't cope with people booking holidays years and years into the future.

Perhaps you did not make policies clear to the new starter when they joined regarding the rota etc....

We asked him at interview if he had any hol already booked and again on his first day after he had done his H&S training etc. We talked him through how to read the rota and what our process was. I also explained it in writing enclosed with the rota to mid November. I also then give them four working days to check their shifts and come back to me with any queries etc. He said it was all fine. I have reflected on whether he may not have understood but he really seemed to every step of the way and he is a bright chap. I take your point however

Sorry for posting replies to each point in this way - only way I knew how to do it!

Evilm

I would say that I would have expected to be told before even if he couldn't give exact dates. For example "I don't know the exact dates but there is a Muslim Eid in early November - the dates aren't decided until really close to the time so as soon as I know can I give you the dates and get those days off?"

I would certainly be expecting that in future and make sure that the employee realises they have to give the employer a rough idea (e.g somewhen in the first two weeks of November) ahead of time and needs to note it again when the schedules are posted and when they finally have the dates. This would be the same with the August one.

I would suggest there is now a note in the employees file about those two festivals (and any other) as well.

scheming_gypsy

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I do wonder whether some people are misinterpreting this statement as a threat. I have Orthodox Jewish friends who wouldn't be able to work on particular days and could say this as a statement of fact rather than as a threat.

I think that if you have no faith, or are a believer in a religion that doesn't lay down these sort of rules, it can be hard to understand the prohibitions that can apply to believers in faiths where there are definite strictures.

As far as I'm aware it isn't compulsory to not work on Eid, as shops don't close for three days.
If it wasn't a threat then it should have been explained better than 'i'm having it off anyway' so the op / boss could understand why it's so important.

John_Jizzle

i agree the employer should have mentioned it - but in the interview you don't want to say anything that could stop you getting a job.

At the end of the day a muslims' religion is more important to them than their job.

If you said no then they would probably come in and work - however they wouldn't be happy and when you expect them to help you out (like working late or coming in on other sick days) they may not be as willing.

I reckon they would come in and work but quickly start looking for other employment, where there needs would be more understood.

elsien

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

I think that if you have no faith, or are a believer in a religion that doesn't lay down these sort of rules, it can be hard to understand the prohibitions that can apply to believers in faiths where there are definite strictures.

I had someone turn down a job offer for this reason. The job involved shift work (day and evening), including 3 out of 4 weekends. At interview he asked how manageable it was to have every Wed pm and Sunday morning off to go to church. When I said that I would do my best to ensure that every week he had either one or the other, but I could not promise to give him both each week without fail, he decided his spiritual wellbeing was more important to him than the job. Not comparable to the OP which is a twice a year thing, but as a confirmed atheist it still took me by surprise that he felt unable to compromise on this.

scheming_gypsy

John_Jizzle wrote: »

At the end of the day a muslims' religion is more important to them than their job.

Although not all Muslims are practising Muslims; but it does ask a question.... Does the employee go for prayers and to the Mosque on a Friday afternoon?
If they don't do that then it sounds like they might just want the big Eid festival.

Cheeky_Monkey

Oldernotwiser wrote: »

Quite informative.

http://www.northgatearinsoemployerservices.com/essentialnews/2-employment-law-news/24-accommodating-religious-holidays

I imagine the case of Khan v NIC Hygiene could be a double-edged sword for people of the muslim faith.

If employers were aware of that case, the future employment of muslims could be drastically reduced.