Fischer Storage Heaters

Truthful1

Thanks, have printed all the info out and passed it along.
Makes you want to be in Florida, but then you have to deal with the noseum mosquitoes.

lstar337

tellsid wrote: »

Ebay sell very good Adax Neo Designer Electric Panel Heater Radiator Convector Slimline Wall Mounted. This will do the job. When a salesman gets into figures of how much you will be saving, i believe this is done only to confuse the old boy. Stay warm and don't get conned

These are direct heating so should only be used with single rate (you need a new meter and tariff) and in a very well insulated home.

If your home is not very well insulated, your yearly electric bill will triple.

tellsid

Truthful1 wrote: »

Tellsid: Thanks but these are old people and not on twitter. Are we paying more for the F rate electric or does it make the standard rate higher?

These old people have sons and daughters, neighbours and friends, who are on Twitter and who visit these old people and can always be warned of these door salesman selling snake oil.

Richie-from-the-Boro

tellsid wrote: »

Personally I would say storage heating is a very old concept. Why would anyone want to buy electricity at today's prices to store heat in a box. You should heat when required. And store the heat in the room and not in a storage clay it would help if the room is well insulated.

I would say storage heating is a very old concept

- agreed, it is, a very old and very well tried TOU concept that works well for its massive user base numbered in many millions
- it is particularly the case for AP's, OAP's, the disabled and housebound who need a living area temp of 22°C + for 17 hours
- so 17 x 6.2 = 105.4p ..... or ..... 17 x 18.6 = 316.2 I know what I choose

Why would anyone want to buy electricity at today's prices to store heat in a box.

- because millions of us pay 6.2p per kW and release its 23.8kWh over the next 17 hours
- other people pay for [day-rate] electricity at three times the cost of [night-rate] core rate

And store the heat in the room and not in a storage clay

- which is precisely what an E7 storage heater does do and what """You should heat when required"" does not do
- its also exactly why night storage heaters do not leak, they release a very small % of charge over the whole 5 winter months
- this keeps the ambient fabric temperature of the living area at a safe and healthy °C for the whole 24 hour cycle
- it also pays for 100+ litres of hot bubbling water for a whole year every year at 30% of the day [core] rate

it would help if the room is well insulated.

- agreed also

tellsid

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

- agreed, it is, a very old and very well tried TOU concept that works well for its massive user base numbered in many millions
- it is particularly the case for AP's, OAP's, the disabled and housebound who need a living area temp of 22°C + for 17 hours
- so 17 x 6.2 = 105.4p ..... or ..... 17 x 18.6 = 316.2 I know what I choose

- because millions of us pay 6.2p per kW and release its 23.8kWh over the next 17 hours
- other people pay for [day-rate] electricity at three times the cost of [night-rate] core rate

- which is precisely what an E7 storage heater does do and what """You should heat when required"" does not do
- its also exactly why night storage heaters do not leak, they release a very small % of charge over the whole 5 winter months
- this keeps the ambient fabric temperature of the living area at a safe and healthy °C for the whole 24 hour cycle
- it also pays for 100+ litres of hot bubbling water for a whole year every year at 30% of the day [core] rate

- agreed also

Very true, but this will only work if the storage is the good old brick. These modern german storage clays will cool down within the hour once they are stitched off. Thats why these oily salesman tell you to never switch them of and let them trickle....trickle at what cost.

lstar337

tellsid wrote: »

Very true, but this will only work if the storage is the good old brick. These modern german storage clays will cool down within the hour once they are stitched off. Thats why these oily salesman tell you to never switch them of and let them trickle....trickle at what cost.

I believe this is what Richie and I have been saying from the start.

The so-called "German storage heater" is useless for a dual rate supply.

They do not store a significant amount of heat and therefore need constant top-up's from peak rate electric.

Not money saving at all!

Truthful1

Wouldn't it be great to hear from someone who has the heaters and to hear about how they heat the house and how their electric bill is.

Truthful1

The testimonials on their site read mostly:
'the heaters do what you said they would do' .
Glad to hear they provide heat.
and,
'The professional installers did a great job.'.
Wonderful news.

Richie-from-the-Boro

tellsid wrote: »

Very true, but this will only work if the storage is the good old brick. These modern german storage clays will cool down within the hour once they are stitched off. Thats why these oily salesman tell you to never switch them of and let them trickle....trickle at what cost.

Here [reproduced from #127] is an explanation, if you look up SAP 2012 v992 / panel convector or radiant [code691] water or oil filled [code694] portable [code693], you will see they all score RD with a [R-Factor] responsiveness of 1.0 neither the European Commission [DG Ener Lot20] or our own government [SAP] recognise their claims. Essentially what is happening, and its not physics its engineering is the oil / fluid filled distributes heat to itself in a uniform way, but there is no 'heating gain :

Fluid / magic oil - gives a slower to start and slower prolonged finish proportion radiant heat at switch off

Non-Fluid / magic oil - would give a faster to start convecting and a faster to finish convected heat at switch off

So there is no efficiency gain, as you say they sell themselves as replacement [brick heaters] storage, which they are not and can't be compared to, when there is no storage other than the 10 or so minutes it takes the snake~oil to release the last of its heat.

[IMG][/img]

Here [reproduced from #134] is a question for the group - are Fischer [STRIKE]storage[/STRIKE] heaters 40%+ cheaper to run, compared to your existing night storage heaters, they claim here :

Our low input storage heaters can make a reduction of up to 40%+, compared to the old night storage heaters

Essentially Fischer are suggesting that if you use their heater you can get the same heat from their heater 40+% cheaper. So Fischer are paying up to 3 times the price for their electricity that the night store heater uses, and still they save 40+%. They don't tell you how they do this. No one including the ASA has seen comparative documentation that substantiated the claim that a 1.5 kW Fischer radiator could be used in the same circumstances as a 3.5 kW night storage heater and provide the same heat output or fulfil the same heating requirements, or that consumers would benefit from a saving of "up to 40%".

Having established Fischer's claim that their [STRIKE]storage[/STRIKE] radiators save up to 40%+, yet provide the same heat output or fulfil the same heating requirements compared to the old night storage heaters, can anyone [including Fischer] tell the group :

- how 24 hours at 12p per kW is 40%+ cheaper than 24 hours at 6p per kW ?
- how a Fischer radiator can provide the same heat output at 12p per kW as a night store heater at 6p per kW ?
- if all electric resistance elements are 100% efficient at turning electricity into heat ;
- then why are Fischer heaters 140% efficient at turning electricity into heat ?
- where does this efficiency gain of 40%+ come from ?

You will note that the magic panel heater took 22 minutes longer to heat the room to 21°C compared to the cheepo steel panel heater. and I give way to the argument that it takes a similar corresponding time to cool from 21°C to 9.2°C but unless someone wants to disagree with my assertion that :

- power out equals power in
- less losses on a resistive heating load
- there are no losses as the losses are heat

What you have are the facts, which are, Fischer et al panel radiators not storage heaters [supported by the ASA] they are panel radiators and are slower to start heating the room and correspondingly slower lose all heat from the £2000 a time alloy and magic oil panel heater at switch off but the inputs and heat outputs are the same .. .. that's physics !

Truthful1

So it's a radiator with some concrete thrown in.