BT - Engineer call out charge - why?

iniltous

I take it you were refunded because BT couldnt prove they told you of the potential for charges for a visit like yours, reports like this, where the engineer didnt find a BT/OR problem can be closed as RWT (right when tested) and taken to mean that there either was never a fault in the first place ...or FNF (fault not found) and taken to mean there is a problem but it cannot be located or not present at the time, but before an engineer was sent the line was tested and compared to a history of the line (BT tests all lines overnight and stores the results)..if the line was deteriorating over a period of time then it adds weight to the FNF clear, but if the line tests OK and has tested OK over the period of the test history then it pushes BT towards the RWT clear and therefore the charge.....strange as it may seem if you had re-reported the fault it would have added to your case of there being a problem, by not re-reporting it it would look like after the visit you were happy the fault had gone, even though the engineer had done nothing (apart from visiting your house)
The back office staff can raise the charge even if the engineer says no charge will apply, infact engineers are not supposed to discuss this as the engineer is there on behalf of the service provider, and any charges raised are actually raised against them (Openreach cannot bill the end user directly)..so OR charge them, they usually pass it on to the end user.

joyfull

Thanks iniltous for such a comprehensive reply. It ties in with some of the comments from the bt staff I've spoken to. What a minefield. Ironically I didn't want to 'trouble' BT by continuing to report fault - it's also very time consuming.

Lesson well and truly learned. I hope this helps others not to get caught out in this way.

Geodesic66

I had a fault on my line back in September - could ring out but couldn't receive calls - line was permanently engaged to incoming callers.

My provider is Talk Talk and after calling them and doing the usual tests they tell you to do after removing the faceplate from the master socket with the fault still there they agreed to send an engineer.

Two engineers sent who quickly traced the fault to a BT80B-RF3 junction box which sits inside my lounge where the cable enters the house and this has a cable to the main BT box with the faceplate on the other side of the room.

Engineer said the box was "worn out" and "they go like this after a while" and showed me the old box which seemed to have discolouration on the PCB within. It was date stamped 11/03 on the back which I assume means Nov 2003.

There was no mention of any callout charge, and I assumed as they had replaced a BT box and said it was worn through, in effect, "wear and tear" it would be at their cost.

Yes, you guessed it, charge on my latest Talk Talk bill for £129.99. Phoned Talk Talk to complain and spoke to 3 different people for over 40 minutes (luckily the call is free) after which I was cut off after being put on hold for the 3rd time. During this conversation I managed to get them to read the engineer's report which said that because the fault was on my property it was a chargeable call-out.

Bearing in mind this:

Do I have to pay for a fault repair?

We can repair many line faults at the exchange or on the network. Others require a visit by a BT engineer. There is no charge for these repairs. We will only charge you when one of our engineers visits your property and finds that the fault could have been fixed by you. For example, if your phone is broken or has been left unplugged.

I can't see why I have been charged. The line and the box on their side of the main master socket is not my property and I'm not allowed to maintain it - had I been allowed to it would have cost me about £3 to replace the junction box which is a filter to prevent radio interference which was fitted some years ago after we started getting radio interference on the line.

I called Talk Talk back and my complaint has now been "escalated" within Talk Talk, but to be fair to them they are only acting on an engineer's report from BT Openreach which says the fault was found on my property and so I should pay.

A trawl of the net this morning reveals that this practice seems to be widespread whereby the default position is that a charge is levied (with no notification to the customer before the engineer leaves the property) and the customer is then left to try to argue the point months after the event through their provider. Fortunately I retained the old box, anticipating that this would happen, and so can show that the old box was not damaged by me.

Perhaps the BT Representative would care to comment on why I was charged for a component which is clearly BT's property and which the engineers confirmed was "wear and tear" damage? If the one they fitted fails next week, I will presumably be liable for further charges of £129.99 every time THEIR component fails?

I'll let you know how I get on with Talk Talk - I'm considering recalling the Direct Debit if they refuse to refund the charge.

iniltous

Geodesic66 wrote: »

I had a fault on my line back in September - could ring out but couldn't receive calls - line was permanently engaged to incoming callers.

My provider is Talk Talk and after calling them and doing the usual tests they tell you to do after removing the faceplate from the master socket with the fault still there they agreed to send an engineer.

Two engineers sent who quickly traced the fault to a BT80B-RF3 junction box which sits inside my lounge where the cable enters the house and this has a cable to the main BT box with the faceplate on the other side of the room.

Engineer said the box was "worn out" and "they go like this after a while" and showed me the old box which seemed to have discolouration on the PCB within. It was date stamped 11/03 on the back which I assume means Nov 2003.

There was no mention of any callout charge, and I assumed as they had replaced a BT box and said it was worn through, in effect, "wear and tear" it would be at their cost.

Yes, you guessed it, charge on my latest Talk Talk bill for £129.99. Phoned Talk Talk to complain and spoke to 3 different people for over 40 minutes (luckily the call is free) after which I was cut off after being put on hold for the 3rd time. During this conversation I managed to get them to read the engineer's report which said that because the fault was on my property it was a chargeable call-out.

Bearing in mind this:



I can't see why I have been charged. The line and the box on their side of the main master socket is not my property and I'm not allowed to maintain it - had I been allowed to it would have cost me about £3 to replace the junction box which is a filter to prevent radio interference which was fitted some years ago after we started getting radio interference on the line.

I called Talk Talk back and my complaint has now been "escalated" within Talk Talk, but to be fair to them they are only acting on an engineer's report from BT Openreach which says the fault was found on my property and so I should pay.

A trawl of the net this morning reveals that this practice seems to be widespread whereby the default position is that a charge is levied (with no notification to the customer before the engineer leaves the property) and the customer is then left to try to argue the point months after the event through their provider. Fortunately I retained the old box, anticipating that this would happen, and so can show that the old box was not damaged by me.

Perhaps the BT Representative would care to comment on why I was charged for a component which is clearly BT's property and which the engineers confirmed was "wear and tear" damage? If the one they fitted fails next week, I will presumably be liable for further charges of £129.99 every time THEIR component fails?

I'll let you know how I get on with Talk Talk - I'm considering recalling the Direct Debit if they refuse to refund the charge.

Why if you are a Talk Talk customer would the BT (Retail) Rep comment ? also why quote the BT (Retail) T&C's....if you think the charge is incorrect (and I think it is) its got nothing to do with BT, TT should be taking it up with BT/Openreach on your behalf and not charge you...you have been charged by your provider TT, its impossible for BT/OR to charge you, if they have charged TT, then TT should be trying to get OR to cancel it, not sticking it on your TT bill, having said that, the thing you indicate doesnt 'wear out' and if it were damaged by say being in a damp enviroment, or by having something spilt onto it, then thats not considered fair wear and tear, also the
BT80B-RF3 isnt fitted as standard (its a RF filter) so who fitted it in the first place ?, just because its BT branded doesnt mean it was BT who fitted it as you can but them online

Geodesic66

My understanding is that BT Openreach are in effect contracted by Talk Talk to maintain the lines that Talk Talk are responsible for by accepting my line rental payment. I realise that it is Talk Talk that have charged me incorrectly, which is why it is them I've complained to.

The reason I quoted BT's terms is that presumably it is those terms which BT engineers work to and those they apply when writing their report of the visit. Those same terms must apply whether they are billing a customer directly or sending the bill to Talk Talk. Are you saying that BT Openreach get paid by Talk Talk regardless of whose fault it is, as if so this doesn't tie up with the engineer recommending a charge be made because the fault was within the boundary of my property. Hence my request for the BT rep to comment since it is a BT employee who has misinterpreted the rules (I contend) in making the recommendation that the charge be made in his report. Surely he should be letting Talk Talk decide whether to make the charge and simply stating facts in the report?

From Talk Talk's Terms and Conditions:

2.12 If you have agreed to a visit from our engineer but the engineer is not able to come onto the Premises or gain access to the relevant equipment, we will charge you an abortive visit charge.

2.13 We can also charge you for any such engineer visit if we reasonably believe that you have caused the fault by damaging the phone line or phone plug in your wall.

spike7451

Read my post #14 on page#1.The link there lays out when a charge is applied,that is from BT's own website so it stands to reason that no charge should be applied,unfortunatly it looks like Talk Talk are trying to be sneaky & pass the charge from BT Openreach onto you.

BT Openreach are responsible for the exchange to the NTE,BY Wholesale are responsible for the exchange work.

Mark_In_Hampshire

Based on what you wrote, the charge should not have been levied. However as you correctly state there have been and continue to be cases of Openreach passing on charges to the ISP which should not have been raised in the first place.

You need to dispute the matter with Talk Talk, and leave them to sort it out with Openreach. If they've already paid Openreach it's not your problem, they need to claw the money back themselves.

You may be correct that they're only passing on the charge and the error was not actually caused by them - we can only speculate, because we don't know whether Openreach charged or not.

But it doesn't matter. You should not be liable to pay.

The direct debit guarantee does not actually cover cases like this. It's only for when an payment is made in error. This wasn't made in error, because it matched the amount on the bill. That said, if they refuse to refund, then it may be the only recourse and the wording of the DD guarantee is ambiguous at best.

Geodesic66

Thanks Mark. From the Financial Ombudsman Service site:

The direct debit guarantee applies to all banks and building societies taking part in the direct debit scheme. It says that:

• if there is a change in the amount to be paid or the payment date, the person receiving the payment (the originator) must notify the customer in advance.
• if the originator or the bank/building society makes an error, the customer is guaranteed a full and immediate refund of the amount paid.
• customers can cancel a direct debit at any time by writing to their bank or building society.

I would interpret this second rule as covering where an item has been incorrectly placed on a bill. I have recalled D/Ds before and find that the money being reclaimed from the organisation by the bank tends to apply pressure to get the case resolved- when they already have your money they are less interested, but when they have to repay it to the bank they take notice. However, in this case it's likely to lead to additional billing charges for "non-payment" by D/D and/or returned D/D charge so I'll wait and see what their decision is first.

iniltous

My point is that you have no relationship with any part of BT, TalkTalk are your provider and its their T&C's that you should be reading....you cannot assume BT's T&C's apply to the industry...why would they...OR dont deal or speak with end users because they deal with CP's...so asking the BT Rep to comment is as pontless as asking someone from Tesco to comment on dodgy goods bought at Asda...if you consider the charge to be unfair you challange TT to justify it they should contact OR and get OR to justify it to them...if at the end of the day TT say OR charged us so we charge you, your complaint is still with TT, because you dont have an invoice from BT/OR but you do from have one ( the TT bill) from them

Geodesic66

Yes, but the fact remains that it is BT who have, in their report, suggested that the charge is valid, by stating that the fault was found within my property, which it was. However, this is not the "test" that should be applied. The test is, in effect, whether I could have prevented the call out by doing something differently.

I agree that I have no contract whatsoever with BT, but this is a forum where I can politely ask whatever I like and it is perfectly reasonable of me, I would suggest, to ask the question of the BT rep why its engineers are apparently providing reports in which they give their "opinion" as to what is chargeable to providers such as Talk Talk. Surely their engineers should be confining themselves to the facts of the case, and allowing the provider to make the decision?