Holiday in term time not authorised, will I be fined?

CH27

wannabehermit wrote: »

It was a mistake pure and simple. I'm not the only one who was unaware of the change of BH next year, as flutterby_lil says she was unaware too (sorry don't know how to quote more than one post) I'm sure there'll be others.

Holiday was booked earlier this year. At the end of last term ds' had a newsletter with term dates on that I filed away until the end of hols. I the put the term date calendar on my noticeboard and had a look at the term dates when I realised half term had moved. They went back to school I applied for a holiday hoping that they would understand it was a genuine mistake. It was not authorised. I remembered reading or hearing sometime ago about fines being brought in to stop parents taking children out of school without permission. I googled it but couldn't find anything so asked on here as I wasn't sure whether the fines were a myth or not. I asked so that I could be prepared for the fine and knew how much it would be, I didn't know it was discretionary dependant on the LEA. I haven't tried anything on, I haven't tried to cover my !!!! anywhere, I've just asked for advice and information.

As it happens I had a letter from the head today saying that they do not authorise family holidays as they can't have one rule for one and one for another so it is a sweeping no holidays across the board but it has been noted in the diary that the ds' won't be there that week and will have to be recorded as an 'unauthorised family holiday'. She also enclosed an attendance report for the 2 boys, ds2s was 97.8% last year which considering he had a few bouts of tonsilitis and a couple of migraines is pretty good. ds1s was 98.8% last year and 99.5% the year before. I'm really not your usual hey lets skive the kids off for a week type of parent.

Hae you actually attempted to change the holiday?

sunshinetours

wannabehermit wrote: »

It was a mistake pure and simple. I'm not the only one who was unaware of the change of BH next year, as flutterby_lil says she was unaware too (sorry don't know how to quote more than one post) I'm sure there'll be others.

Holiday was booked earlier this year. At the end of last term ds' had a newsletter with term dates on that I filed away until the end of hols. I the put the term date calendar on my noticeboard and had a look at the term dates when I realised half term had moved. They went back to school I applied for a holiday hoping that they would understand it was a genuine mistake. It was not authorised. I remembered reading or hearing sometime ago about fines being brought in to stop parents taking children out of school without permission. I googled it but couldn't find anything so asked on here as I wasn't sure whether the fines were a myth or not. I asked so that I could be prepared for the fine and knew how much it would be, I didn't know it was discretionary dependant on the LEA. I haven't tried anything on, I haven't tried to cover my !!!! anywhere, I've just asked for advice and information.

As it happens I had a letter from the head today saying that they do not authorise family holidays as they can't have one rule for one and one for another so it is a sweeping no holidays across the board but it has been noted in the diary that the ds' won't be there that week and will have to be recorded as an 'unauthorised family holiday'. She also enclosed an attendance report for the 2 boys, ds2s was 97.8% last year which considering he had a few bouts of tonsilitis and a couple of migraines is pretty good. ds1s was 98.8% last year and 99.5% the year before. I'm really not your usual hey lets skive the kids off for a week type of parent.

You saw a cheap holiday and booked it before you had confirmed holiday dates on the LEA website which you knew were available for next two years. An honest mistake but still your mistake

You could have asked Havens to change the booking to the more expensive school holiday week but I can only assume from the deafening silence to that question that you didn't.

Doesn't make you bad person, clearly your kids have excellent attendance and academic records up to now - just say it as it is rather than blame everyone else as seems to be the fashion these days!! Also a good lesson for your children to learn I would have thought?

onlyroz

wannabehermit wrote: »

Haven ime are about the most unflexible company going. I've tried to make changes to holidays with them in the past and faced massive brick walls all the way up to management.

So you haven't even tried?

onlyroz

wannabehermit wrote: »

I the put the term date calendar on my noticeboard and had a look at the term dates when I realised half term had moved.

Half term has not moved - you just never bothered to check the dates.

rachbc

sassyblue wrote: »

I know, too much sanctimony.... it causes a blockage between the brain and fingertips.

:rotfl:Ha ha probably but mine was a typo not bad grammar, repeated numerous times in the same post!!

throughtherain

As others have said, I'm sure no great consequence will come of you taking the holiday.

I too am annoyed by your insistence that this is the result of an 'accident' or something not of your own fault. It is ludicrous to suggest that when booking a holiday you don't check the exact dates before doing so. It is irrelevant when holidays normally fall; there is always room for manoeuvre with holiday dates and so the specific dates should be checked. If the dates had actually been alterered by the school, I would agree with you, but as the school provided accurate dates with 2 years' notice, you are the person at fault for not being responsible enough to check. That said, of course people make mistakes and do things without thinking them through, and this has obviously been the case here, just please don't say it's an accident.

Most teachers would be quite judgemental about this. Look at it from the other side: if a teacher hadn't checked their holiday dates before booking, and still insisted on going on the holiday, would you be happy receiving a letter saying "Mr/Mrs X has accidentally booked their holiday for the wrong week, and so you will not be able to send your child to school in this week. We apologise for any inconvenience caused, but I am sure you can appreciate the teacher's dilemma of not wanting to waste the incorrectly booked holiday. Unfortunately there was no money left in the budget for supply cover."

flimsier

wannabehermit wrote: »

We managed to book a pretty cheap holiday for the last week of May next year (traditionally May half term). When we go away it always tends to be this week as it is much cheaper than going in Summer and booking early enough gets a pretty good deal. May half term is always the last week of May - the same week as the last bank holiday Monday in May.

So we book it, then at the end of last term we are given the term dates. The bank holiday has been moved to the beginning of June as has half term. Holiday has already been booked. On the 1st day of term I fill in a holiday request form stating that if half term and the bank holiday hadn't been moved then it wouldn't be a problem. Not my fault that half term has been changed. As far as I'm aware Bank Hols in May have always been first Monday & last Monday of the month. God only knows why they've decided to randomly change it next year.

Yes, I know that school term dates are available for 2 years so had I looked on the LA website I would have seen that it had been changed this school year, but as it's always been that week I didn't expect them to change it now. Likewise I wouldn't expect a bank holiday to change (except at Easter).

DS2 had the reply back today saying that it has not been authorised and I cannot take him out of school. Well I will be as it's booked and I'm not changing it. It's not as though I've deliberately booked it during term time, they only have to look at his and ds1s record and see that they have never had absences apart from health reasons and ds1 has had most years with 100% attendance so it's not exactly as though I make a habit of it. I haven't yet had the reply for ds1 but as it's the junior part of ds2s infant with the same head I would imagine the answer will be the same.

I remember reading some time ago about parents being fined (quite a significant amount if iirc) if they took their children out of school for a holiday, was this scaremongering or does it really happen? WOuld I be able to appeal it if they did fine me as they changed the term dates?

Having just looked on website, 2012-13 half term is back to last week of May.

It very much depends on the school. It depends on whether they've taken up their powers, how rigorously they enforce them. Often these things depend on the overall level of attendance at the school, and whether they are under pressure, and moreso the level of unauthorised absence.

Separately, I notice a lot of people on these threads suggest that it's "fair enough" to take kids out of school because of the high prices in the holidays. I don't agree.

There is an extremely high correlation between attendance and achievement at school. Missed days really does equal lower grades, and it's not the case that one day makes little difference. Because progress is not linear, you cannot guarantee that they haven't missed that learning opportunity that makes it "all fit together". I really don't beleive you can "catch up" in the same way as well. In my experience if the student actually does "catch up" it's meaningless, because (a) learning is social and (b) often the teacher will have moved on and (c) it's necessarily rushed.

Plus they have new learning that builds on their own learning. In a good lesson, a teacher will use a lot of formative assessment. IE be constantly assessing your child so that the next lesson is pitched at their level based on how they did last lesson (and every other child's level - that's why teaching is so difficult.

Back to the thread, I would speak to the school, and if they say "you'll be fined", ask them how many fines they have issued so far. It may be an empty threat.

adouglasmhor wrote: »

You have to be taken to court to be fined, school cna't just do it. Very unlikely to be fined a stroppy letter will be my guess.

Wrong.

Seanymph wrote: »

you'll be fine.
The school isn't authorising it because they aren't allowed to any more - they are accountable for anything they authorise. So, they have toed the line but in reality it means nothing except for they won't get in trouble.
You have to be a very persistent offender before the LEA gets involved, and go through endless hoops, meetings, return to school negotiations ad infinitum before you get to court. Then the court probably won't fine you anyway.
*as a governor absenteeism was one of my responsibilities *

Depends on the school and/ or LA (if under LA control) though.

kingfisherblue wrote: »

What happens when a child goes to visit a family abroad for several months? I know one child who went in July and won't return until November.

Depends on the school, but if oversubscribed, the school will be very tempted to take them off roll - and within their rights to.

SINBAD wrote: »

Nothing will happen to you, but I can tell you as a teacher, your name will be mud in the staff room, and you will be viewed as the type of parent who puts going on holiday above your children's education.

....unless of course your kids are badly behaved, in which case the above will still apply, but their teachers will be relieved that they're out of class! It's also very true that the type of people -from any background- who think that a child can easily miss a week or so of school, are the people who have the worst behaved kids!

Bear in mind also that you are teaching your children that it is ok to break the law, just so long as 'you get away with it.'

I wouldn't have put it so harshly, but I agree with this post. It is unlikely anything will happen.

thatgirlsam wrote: »

Thanks, thats interesting, although the part about prosecution means that the school cannot make you pay it, but a court can... IF the school bothers to take it that far

True, but schools almost always will, else it gets round v quickly that the fines mean nothing.

wannabehermit wrote: »

I hope you're not one of the teachers at my ds' school. Lets see, you're talking to someone who wouldn't even take their son out of nursery/preschool whatever it happens to be called nowadays as I didn't want him to miss any 'school'. If I'd known that half term was a week later than usual then the holiday would have been booked for that week instead of the one that it is.

My ds1 has missed about 3 or 4 days throughout the whole of his school life. He is in year 5, working at year 9 level maths & english, so it's not like he's going to struggle to catch up to the other children when he gets back. I've never had to go in about his behaviour, he actually requests to work on his own in the corridor as he gets easily distracted by the behaviour of other children, so he's not in the naughty category that you've put the 2 children in just because I made a mistake with holiday dates.

ds2 has missed a bit more as he suffers with migraines. If the LEA were so concerned about him being at school they would allow him to keep medication in school. But the rule is that if it's not needed at least 4 times a day it can't be kept in school, so if I can't get there quickly enough to give him the medication when a migraine starts then he will miss a few days of school while he has the migraine and is recovering aferwards. If they were to allow it to be kept in school then he could have it when it starts, I could collect him, he may miss the rest of the day but if it's caught early enough that would be it. And as for his behaviour, apparently he's one of the sensible ones, very quiet, gets on with things and causes the teachers no bother at all. In fact they have a 'happy face', 'sad face' and 'warning triangle'. In the whole of reception he didn't even go onto the warning triangle. SO he must be very good at hiding his bad behaviour from the teachers.

So according to you because my children are accidentally going to miss one week of school then that points to the fact that they are obviously the badly behaved children of the school and the teachers will be glad to get rid of them for a week. I think you need to rethink your logic.

I don't think the poster was saying "in every case". It's a generalisation. Of course there are exceptions. There is no need to defend yourself. By asking the question, you're better than most who just take their kids, and I'm sure you are responsible. The poster's point is still correct though.

sunshinetours wrote: »

What did the holiday company say when you tried to call them and move your week after your mistake . I've found Haven's and such quite helpful previously when I had to move a week. I would guess it will be more expensive but obviously that isn't relevant to thsi argument

I also agree that your kids behaviour should not be in question here as only you and the teachers know the truth on that

V good idea in my view.

Bumpmakesfour wrote: »

Wow it really is very reassuring to know the kids at schools today are being taught by judgemental people like you
At my kids school right up till last term the head would authorise up to 10 days if you could show valid reasons but now it's a straight out no.We didn't take any term time off when it was "allowed" but now we do need a week it's automatically unauthorised.
Even so I'm taking my DS out for a week as he has aspergers and really struggles to cope with crowds/noise so going peak times would be a nightmare.He's working at a year 6/7 level but is in yr 4,been free reading since beginning of year 2 etc so I'm not concerned about him catching up once he returns.If my name is "mud" I really couldn't care less tbh.He's 8,it's not like he's doing his A levels and a holiday is a learning experience in itself.DS has had 100% attendance most terms with the odd day off with sickness bugs and we will catch up on any work he misses.
We're making the decision based on what's best for us as a family..or at least I THOUGHT we were...how silly of us not to take staffroom gossip into consideration :rotfl:

Yes, we used to authorise up to ten days, before OFSTED basically said we'd be labelled a failing school unless our attendance improved, including the proportion of students with good attendance. I didn't agree with authorising ten days, and prefer a hardline, mainly because of the extreme correlation between attendance and achievement/ attainment. And of course, parents who say "my child is above average so can catch up" - a ludicrous position... if they're above average, we want to accelerate their progress and they need every minute in school to achieve at the highest possible level (plus the support at home, and so on).

Bumpmakesfour

nancypearl wrote: »

The rules are there for a reason.

Breaking the rules and then trying to justify it by saying it's not my fault because
the holiday dates changed/I have a sick child/my family lives a long way away/I cannot afford to go on holiday at any other time/no-one tells me what to do*
is just wrong.



*delete as appropriate

Well for us the "I have a sick child" bit IS an entirely justifiable reason although my son isn't sick he has a disability.We tried a peak time holiday and he spent most of it under tables/locking himself in any room he could find with a bolt on it.So for him taking/not taking those 5 days off during term time really is the difference between having a holiday or not as we won't be doing a busy high season holiday with him again.
Luckily for us I couldn't care less if people see it as "wrong" I see it as enabling my child to enjoy and experience things that his peers can~we just have other things to take into consideration.
Once he's at the stage of exams etc we will have to reconsider any time off but for now,as he's 8 and way ahead in his school work I'm happy the decision to miss 5 days of school this year is the right one

flimsier

Bumpmakesfour wrote: »

Well for us the "I have a sick child" bit IS an entirely justifiable reason although my son isn't sick he has a disability.We tried a peak time holiday and he spent most of it under tables/locking himself in any room he could find with a bolt on it.So for him taking/not taking those 5 days off during term time really is the difference between having a holiday or not as we won't be doing a busy high season holiday with him again.
Luckily for us I couldn't care less if people see it as "wrong" I see it as enabling my child to enjoy and experience things that his peers can~we just have other things to take into consideration.
Once he's at the stage of exams etc we will have to reconsider any time off but for now,as he's 8 and way ahead in his school work I'm happy the decision to miss 5 days of school this year is the right one

With a long discussion, the school might see it the same way and even be able to justify it as "education off site" (though that would be stretching the truth I suppose) - would be happy days all round!

Bumpmakesfour

flimsier wrote: »

Yes, we used to authorise up to ten days, before OFSTED basically said we'd be labelled a failing school unless our attendance improved, including the proportion of students with good attendance. I didn't agree with authorising ten days, and prefer a hardline, mainly because of the extreme correlation between attendance and achievement/ attainment. And of course, parents who say "my child is above average so can catch up" - a ludicrous position... if they're above average, we want to accelerate their progress and they need every minute in school to achieve at the highest possible level (plus the support at home, and so on).

I don't see it as ludicrous.We will have DS' worksheets and reading books with us and he will catch up on any work missed.There is more to life than school work when you're 8 years old.Experiencing other countries,the food,a different currency..even a plane trip or helping to pack a suitcase are all valuable lessons too in my eyes.