Who owns 'my' cellar?

Tiddlywinks

casper_g wrote: »

I wonder, do the leases for the upstairs flats contain the same wording re. the "structure under the floor"?

This question is spot on... if the upstairs lease says the same thing then it could be argued that the "structured under the floor" was joists or something similar. If it doesn't, then it is more likely to refer to the cellar.

Tommoh

Thanks for all your replies, I have spoken (at length) with the other owner about it. Ironically, he's a property developer, and he says in all his years dealing with buying and selling houses, he's never come across such a dirty trick or such unreasonable behaviour.
Basically the goal posts have now been moved 4 times, from paying for (admittedly reasonable) repairs on to this taking in gems such as demanding we pay to get her flats internal electrics checked, as her fuses kept blowing to building her a bike rack.
We have the lease plan, and it doesn't show the cellar. However, it does show that the entrance hall belongs to us and that the other flats only have rights of access through it, so even if the cellar was communal, there would be no way of building a separate entrance without our permission.
The most annoying aspect of this is that we were offered the flat with full ownership of the freehold for the entire building when we originally purchased it, and only offered the share of freehold to the other 2 flats as we thought it would avoid unpleasantness like this. Even worse, the property developer neighbour actually advised us against sharing the freehold with the other neighbour due to his experience with her in the past, but we assumed it would be illegal not to share the freehold with all the other properties.

Tommoh

Ah, just had a check and her lease refers to "the structure between the floors of the demised premises and the ceilings of the first floor flat" if that helps any?

DVardysShadow

Tommoh wrote: »

Ah, just had a check and her lease refers to "the structure between the floors of the demised premises and the ceilings of the first floor flat" if that helps any?

Well, we need to know a little about the structure of the place. I assume you have the ground floor, another has the first and she has the second. That appears to exclude her contention that she has rights to the cellar. Also, for clarification, you own the entrance hall, with others having rights, but I take it that the entrance to the cellar is not in the entrance hall area and that there are in fact no rights to get to the entrance to the cellar.

This all being the case, she has no rights.

pinkshoes

Tommoh wrote: »

Ah, just had a check and her lease refers to "the structure between the floors of the demised premises and the ceilings of the first floor flat" if that helps any?

Well that defines that they own below their floorboards, right up to the ceiling of the flat below.

So yours would imply that you own EVERYTHING below yours, right down to the bottom of the cellar...

I'd get a good solicitor onto this to sort it out.

emg

I don't know if this helps but I own 50% share of freehold on a block of three flats. I live in the top flat and there is a loft. When we bought our freehold there was some discussion about the loft as officially it forms part of the freehold and isnt included in the lease for my flat. The solicitor and surveyor told me that no one else can access the loft as the sole access is through my flat with no rights of way. In theory the other freeholder could object to me using it but it's unlikely/how would they know/why would they/etc. They suggested to me that the only issue would be if I converted the loft space into living space in which case the other freeholder would be entitled to object or ask for a share of any increase in value.

Tommoh

Close enough, we have the ground floor, she has the first, another has the second. We own the entrance hall (although she used it for storing a bookcase for years) and the only entrance to the cellar is through stairs in our flat. She, as you may have deduced, is not a reasonable person, so we would need some legal proof that the cellar is ours alone. Any idea where we could get this other than through a sloicitor or is that the only route?

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Well, we need to know a little about the structure of the place. I assume you have the ground floor, another has the first and she has the second. That appears to exclude her contention that she has rights to the cellar. Also, for clarification, you own the entrance hall, with others having rights, but I take it that the entrance to the cellar is not in the entrance hall area and that there are in fact no rights to get to the entrance to the cellar.

This all being the case, she has no rights.

vax2002

You just need to learn to play the game, if the stuff is still there write stating that a rental charge of £55 a week will now be implemented for storage in your cellar.
Learn to give it back

DVardysShadow

OK, the cellar issue is something where she potentially could have caused some grief, which would affect a sale. But as I see it, she is powerless because it is for her to prove her rights, not for you to disprove her assertions.

As for extending the lease, you have rights to do this and effectively, she cannot stand in the way, apart from making it more expensive. Even so, it is a fairly simple case to make that if she increases the cost to you, it sets a precedent for any lease extension she requires. The best thing is for all leases to be extended at equal cost - effectively nil.

I would be returning her box to her.

poppysarah

casper_g wrote: »

I wonder, do the leases for the upstairs flats contain the same wording re. the "structure under the floor"?

That would be your flat?