Depessing news

JWF

attila_ wrote: »

Good debate going on here.

My two pence.

I'm concerned about people's opinions of good Universities. I came out of top 10 University and I am worried by the lack of practical/industry/business knowledge that I could have instantly applied into the work place. This is a fundamental issue - the quality of a taught degree, be it from a top Uni or an old poly is going down - the University money is in research and not teaching.

In my experience, a graduate who did a degree combined with a year out working in industry is worth about 10x a bog standard wet behind the ears grad. Obviously if the degree is relevant to the job they are doing this is also highly useful.

wastedtalent

I'd love to see people on benefits having to earn them, even if its only a few hours a week, helping out the elderly, or with childcare, or with caring. Have them filling in potholes, gardening, just making the country a nicer place to be. Cleaning graffiti. It would teach them the value of money. [I do expect a lot of those on benefits people would not want near their kids/themselves mind, and those that are actively looking for work may feel they are better than this]. It may also reverse this 'me' culture we have, and I believe it's true that lethargy breeds, and in most cases people want to be doing something for their society, and feel that they are making a contribution (if people really don't want to contribute, they get nothing).

Also (and I'd have been happy with this) introduce voluntary work into the school curriculum, as well as financial education, education should include, but not only be about maths, English and science, but about technical and social skills also.

I admit there may be some sweeping generalisations here, but you get the idea.

Herbie_Hancock_I_wish

bendix wrote: »

Only one option in my view. Leave the UK - it's dying.

Come to Asia where hard work is rewarded, where tax rates are low, and where people are encouraged to save and build their own futures.

Attitudes which, paradoxically, were what made Britain great until the liberal left decided to pamper and molly coddle everyone and reduce everyone to a level of mediocrity that is now leading to its natural consequences.

And - curiously - as everyone dumbs down in the UK, so their self-regard and sense of entitlement ('because I'm worth it') has increased exponentially.

You know Bendix , I recall the days in the UK where hard work was rewarded . Rightly so . I recall an amazing boss in the early 70`s . I worked really hard for the guy , he moaned that I worked days off . Why I would say ? Just love my job . Mid 20`s , posh car paid for by the compamy , hotel expenses , very high income and a bunch of perks .

I was a good niche salesman . Bosses attitude was stay in bed until lunchtime but just produce the figures . One day he sat me down and told me that he paid me a lot of money . He told me that was nothing as he made a mint out of me . Not many that you would say have the same attitude these days .

Love to join you in Asia but a bit too old . Oh and not well . Fed up to the back teeth the way this country is going . Oh well .

Anyway thanks for a good post .

dtsazza

Herbie_Hancock_I_wish wrote: »

You know Bendix , I recall the days in the UK where hard work was rewarded . Rightly so . I recall an amazing boss in the early 70`s . I worked really hard for the guy , he moaned that I worked days off . Why I would say ? Just love my job . Mid 20`s , posh car paid for by the compamy , hotel expenses , very high income and a bunch of perks .

I was a good niche salesman . Bosses attitude was stay in bed until lunchtime but just produce the figures . One day he sat me down and told me that he paid me a lot of money . He told me that was nothing as he made a mint out of me . Not many that you would say have the same attitude these days .

That's a good point, but I don't know if that's fundamentally changed, unless companies are being run by incompetent directors nowadays.

If you would make the company £20,000 a year more than the second-best candidate, why wouldn't they pay you £5k more? From what I can see working in the private sector for small companies, this is still very much alive. If a prospective employer really can get better results by hiring someone else for less than you're asking for, good luck to them.

(And along those lines, I think any company that has pay grades or pay ranges for jobs is shooting themselves in the foot. Hire a good candidate and pay them what they're worth based on the work they'll do.)

dtsazza

attila_ wrote: »

I'm concerned about people's opinions of good Universities. I came out of top 10 University and I am worried by the lack of practical/industry/business knowledge that I could have instantly applied into the work place. This is a fundamental issue - the quality of a taught degree, be it from a top Uni or an old poly is going down - the University money is in research and not teaching.

I agree that a lot of the lesser universities' degrees are of dubious value.

But I'm not worried that the content of the courses is abstract and somewhat academic. The point of a degree (IMHO) is to give you a conceptual framework, and the mental tools, upon which to hang your later experiences so as to get the most out of them. If a degree solely taught you practical things, it wouldn't be of much more use than just doing work for the same period. And what you learnt would quickly become outdated as real-world techniques and situations changed over time (in fact there's a fair chance that what you learn would already be obsolete without a direct link to industry).

Instead, degrees teach you principles of the subject, and in a way you "learn how to learn" from what you do on the job. In my case, my degree was in Computer Science - and you're right that when I started my first job I didn't know how to put code in source control, how to write a build system for an application, how to write units tests, and so on. But those were all quickly learned over the next few months; whereas what I had learned at university - the principles of data structures, assessing asymptotic complexity of algorithms, how software maps to hardware and gets executed, etc. - were relevant to everything I did, and still are.

Specific examples come and go, but teaching abstract principles lets people identify and adapt to new examples so much quicker.


That said, for more practical roles such as plumbing - you don't really need that knowledge worker mentality, and consequently an apprenticeship would be much more appropriate than a degree.

Herbie_Hancock_I_wish

dtsazza wrote: »

That's a good point, but I don't know if that's fundamentally changed, unless companies are being run by incompetent directors nowadays.

If you would make the company £20,000 a year more than the second-best candidate, why wouldn't they pay you £5k more? From what I can see working in the private sector for small companies, this is still very much alive. If a prospective employer really can get better results by hiring someone else for less than you're asking for, good luck to them.

(And along those lines, I think any company that has pay grades or pay ranges for jobs is shooting themselves in the foot. Hire a good candidate and pay them what they're worth based on the work they'll do.)

Ah if only that was true . I worked as technical sales person . Self employed . I developed an area , all my expences paid by me , from £250k to a little under £900k in 3 years . Car , hotels , food all from my pocket plus I would do unpaid favours for them . I got 6.5% commision on all sales .

Part of that was the jackpot . I introduced a very high turnover internet company to my contractor . It turned out that boss of that company and I had a mutual friend . Miserable that he was , he took to me and gave me huge orders . Maybe £25k a month .

My reward was that after a while the firm I was representing turned this merchant into a " house account " and refused to pay me .

I struggled on . Much reduced income but enough . Last year I had a mental breakdown yet I kept bringing business via e mail and phone .

In April I was fired . Knowing a bit of commercial agents law the first large specialist company of solicitors I contacted have taken my case on , no win , no fee . They are going for the jugular as said contractors are in breach of EU law .

Yes the money would be nice however watching those swine squirm well be delightful . They are so dodgy that if , I hope it won`t , goes to court I feel it is likely they will lie .

Will update .

claire16c

snugglepet20 wrote: »

I do not know a single graduate of non-goverment sponsored degrees (nursing, social work, teaching etc) who has got a job that requires a degree in the past 5 years and these people are heart-broken.

I am looking for a job at the moment and compared to 2007 when I last looked there literally is virtually nothing out there. For people with limited skills or work experience the task will be nigh on impossible when even the highly experienced are looking at jobs which barely pay more than minimum wage.

I agree with some of the things you are saying but I also think you are exaggerating.

I have a non-government sponsored degree from the past 5 years and got a job that required a degree. So did everyone who I worked with in the office who was my age, and the people I graduated with from uni. So I find it weird you dont know a single person!

And the graduate jobs that I saw in 2007, are still being offered by the same companies this year.