Employer cancelling your holiday leave

Bev._2

Hot on the heels of the "can they do it" thread yesterday, i have another one, but this time this one is totally about my own situation:

Cancelling folks holidays has been mentioned in the past, but only once do i remember it being done to someone.

Where do they(employers) / you (employee) stand when it comes down to this?

If i just booked a week off & planned to sit on my backside all week i'd likely be a bit miffed, but it wouldn't be the end of the world - i'd just have the week elsewhere. This isn't really the problem as such.

It's when you've booked up to go away & then even moreso when you've booked up with another person or people to go away as it's not just effecting you then.

I have a week booked with my partner. We have travel tickets costing just over £100 between us, even tickets costing around £200 between us, accommodation costing similar again.


So IF my employer was to turn around & say you can't have "such-&-such a week off" where do i stand?

I guess a factor may be the notice given. However, some companies wont give you a refund no matter how much notice you give THEM. Or, you'll have to pay a penalty - these can add up & it's unlikely your employer will reimburse you on this ... so you're left out of pocket & potentially working a time for nothing (for example).

Then there's that old golden nugget ... "sufficient notice" / "as much notice as possible" / "satisfactory notice" / "notice as and when required" etc etc. The wishy washy description which means they're telling you today (Wednesday) that you can't have your holiday tomorrow / next Monday etc - so no time to cancel at all.




It hasn't happened at my place of work ... yet, but it's certainly been mentioned, so it's always best to be armed with knowledge on your rights.

SarEl

The notice to withdraw leave is twice as long as the period of the holiday - so two weeks minimum for a one weeks holiday. And you are correct - there is a moral obligation to repay costs incurred if they do, but no legal obligation.

hcb42

i have never really known anyone in that position, but if the employer is that stubborn, time to get a new job..

Bev._2

SarEl wrote: »

The notice to withdraw leave is twice as long as the period of the holiday - so two weeks minimum for a one weeks holiday. And you are correct - there is a moral obligation to repay costs incurred if they do, but no legal obligation.

OUCH!!!!! So they'd only need to give you 2 weeks notice, yet you could've paid up god knows how much, many many hundreds & not be able to get it back, but there's nothing you could do about it? That's painful.

It'd be times like these many would just take the time off as sick (especially a week).

Problem there though, is it'd be quite obvious that you're pulling one & there'd be the knock on effect from that.


Not very comforting news, but then the truth often isn't.

dark_lady

I used to know someone who worked for the now defunct 1car1. His colleagues holiday leave was withdrawn at short notice and he was told he HAD to come in to work.
So his wife and three kids had to go on the booked holiday to Spain without him. The wife was absolutely furious and said the holiday was like being a single mum.
When she came back she told him she wanted to split up and he moved out.

SarEl

Bev. wrote: »

OUCH!!!!! So they'd only need to give you 2 weeks notice, yet you could've paid up god knows how much, many many hundreds & not be able to get it back, but there's nothing you could do about it? That's painful.

It'd be times like these many would just take the time off as sick (especially a week).

Problem there though, is it'd be quite obvious that you're pulling one & there'd be the knock on effect from that.


Not very comforting news, but then the truth often isn't.

Obviously the employer needs to have a "reasonable" cause for doing this - but the problem is that (a) they almost always have a good excuse (b) you would have to take it to a tribunal to test it so you wouldn't get an answer in time and (c) you would probably be unemployed by the time the tribunal came around anyway. TBH, in my experience it isn't common and the better employers would never do something like this without a real and genuine cause and wouldn't then quibble about compensation, but I have to say that I am noticing a rise in the number of poor employers (by poor, I mean bad) who now think they can get away with just about anything.

For anyone faced with this scenario, my advice would be to respond to any such request immediately, and in writing, with either / both (a) a full explanation of why the holiday cannot be cancelled and/or (b) a full breakdown of the costs involved in cancelling and a request for full repayment of incurred costs if the employee agrees to cancel; stating full details of the relevant leave approvals - who authorised it and when; and if you cannot cancel / the employer refuses to reimburse the costs, a statement that you must regretfully decline to cancel your holiday and will be going as per the previous authorisation.

I must emphasise that if you are not immediately dismissed (or dismissed when you go), then I wouldn't expect your employment to be lengthy thereafter (and upon giving the employer the letter - start looking for another job). But this would give you the best chance at an unfair dismissal claim. These days, when people can pay substantial amounts of money for a family holiday, few people can afford to throw away their hard earned money for the whim of an employer.

C_Mababejive

This kind of thing is becoming more common as employers use the fear factor to drive workers harder and also it helps them to manage with fewer employees if they restrict your level of freedom to take holidays when you choose. We will soon be in a situation whereby employers will allocate holidays to you and if you dont like them,you will have to try and swap with colleagues. So if you get allocated two weeks in January,you will have to try to swap with your mate who luckily,has been allocated two weeks in August.

This isnt just happening in small concerns though. I know of it happening in major blue chip co's.

I will say it again that if you and your colleagues are not in a union,you had better join one. Unity is strength.

SarEl

C_Mababejive wrote: »

This kind of thing is becoming more common as employers use the fear factor to drive workers harder and also it helps them to manage with fewer employees if they restrict your level of freedom to take holidays when you choose. We will soon be in a situation whereby employers will allocate holidays to you and if you dont like them,you will have to try and swap with colleagues. .

I should point out that employers have always had the right to dictate when people can take their holidays, and many people have always been restricted to taking their leave when the employer tells them they can. This is not in fact about choosing when you take holiday - it is about it being cancelled after it has already been agreed that it is holiday.

But I agree that being in a union is a good idea - but only if you are prepared to do something about it. Unions cannot force employers to do things if the employer is acting within the law - only union members can do that!

Bev._2

SarEl wrote: »

Obviously the employer needs to have a "reasonable" cause for doing this - but the problem is that (a) they almost always have a good excuse (b) you would have to take it to a tribunal to test it so you wouldn't get an answer in time and (c) you would probably be unemployed by the time the tribunal came around anyway. TBH, in my experience it isn't common and the better employers would never do something like this without a real and genuine cause and wouldn't then quibble about compensation, but I have to say that I am noticing a rise in the number of poor employers (by poor, I mean bad) who now think they can get away with just about anything.

For anyone faced with this scenario, my advice would be to respond to any such request immediately, and in writing, with either / both (a) a full explanation of why the holiday cannot be cancelled and/or (b) a full breakdown of the costs involved in cancelling and a request for full repayment of incurred costs if the employee agrees to cancel; stating full details of the relevant leave approvals - who authorised it and when; and if you cannot cancel / the employer refuses to reimburse the costs, a statement that you must regretfully decline to cancel your holiday and will be going as per the previous authorisation.

I must emphasise that if you are not immediately dismissed (or dismissed when you go), then I wouldn't expect your employment to be lengthy thereafter (and upon giving the employer the letter - start looking for another job). But this would give you the best chance at an unfair dismissal claim. These days, when people can pay substantial amounts of money for a family holiday, few people can afford to throw away their hard earned money for the whim of an employer.

I know we are getting into dangerous territory with this, but let's play the "what if" game:

What if the individual does as you advise (regards the in writing) & then goes on their holiday anyway - against the employers instruction.

Question is: Is this a sackable offence? OR would you be looking at final warning?

I know you can be sacked for anything at all (whether your employer would be RIGHT to sack you is another matter - but you can be sacked for anything), but this aside, would it be a sackable offence?


We are lucky in that we can put in for our holidays when we like. The employer can decline, but they rarely tell us when to take our holidays. We had a case this year where they did though with one member of staff.

SarEl

I am going with line 4 thank you! I don't do crystal balls. You refuse to cancel your leave and so the heart surgery that you should have performed doesn't happen and somebody dies. Or the fourth toilet cubicle doesn't get cleaned every day. One is kind of crucial and one isn't. Like a lot of things in employment law - it depends...

Bev._2

Sorry, it's difficult without more information isn't it. lol. My fault...

I work in the building trade. I serve customers. I drive delivery vehicles (other people can do this - company are always calling on other people to cover various holidays), i only do this occasionally. My main position is in the yard department where i attend to customers & our own vehicles as well as deliveries.

If i was to have a holiday, that would leave the department a man down, obviously. However at times, the company has operated with that quantity of staff (in other words, there's 4 of us. Me going would leave 3, yet we've operated on 3 people before).

If i didn't turn in, what would happen? People would have to "pull their finger out" so to speak - like we do (including myself) at any moment someone else is off sick / on holiday. The job would still get done. It would perhaps take a little longer, but it'd still get done. My co-workers may finish a little later (15, 30 minutes perhaps) - but this is no different to what we all have to do when someone else is sick / on holiday.